The Barabbas curse

[groinkick]

But over the course of the books Jim took everything away from Murphy, her career, her mental health, and her physical health and when he stripped the character of everything, he killed her off. She was a torture doll.  And she isn't the only female character  given this treatment.

Your accusations of Jim being sexist are unfounded, and making accusations like that are pretty messed up.  Harry has been brutalized.  Thomas has been brutalized.  Lord Raith is suffering a fate worse than death, being driven mad for decades by being slowly starved to death.  Slate was tortured so badly by Mab he begged for death. 

Have you ever considered that maybe Murphy's "death" serves a purpose for later books?  Like the impact of seeing her in Mirror Mirror, or when she will make her return as a warrior of Odin?  Or near the end if Dresden takes up the Odin Mantle, and is reunited with her?  You developed an unfounded bias against Jim, and it's pretty much the same as accusing him of being a racist, and is a messed up thing to do.

Jim is a super nice guy, and if you want to complain about the story, fine, but accusations of sexism should require actual evidence and not just your bitterness about a characters fate in a book.

[LaraBeck]

I do wonder if Mab or an angel juiced her up at Mac's bar so she could ignore her injuries. As you said there is no way she's navigating a Harley, injured, through the streets of Chicago post EMP, with the near 300 pound gorilla that is Harry Dresden riding behind her. Not freaking happening.

There is something about this in the books actually, the first parts I just put here for context, but the bold parts are the important bits related to what you're saying:

Battle Ground, Ch 16:

The world went red again. This time I saw the beam tear a building apart, farther south of us, bringing it crashing down like a sandcastle before the tide, and the light lingered in the air, tinging the haze an ugly shade of scarlet.
We all just stared at that for a second. No one made a sound.
“Big bad mojo,” Bob said. His tone was . . . worried. “I haven’t ever seen anything on this scale, boss. The amount of power flying around out there is more than it can handle.”

...

Murphy rolled out onto the street and turned west. I felt weirdly like the subject of a presidential motorcade, what with the Knights and werewolves running escort. “So what can we expect?” I asked.
“Chaos,” Bob said.”
“More specific?”
“Impossible! Widespread insanity for the mortals, maybe. Maybe transmissible insanity. Hallucinations, tulpas, and outright unintentional creation of things right out of people’s imaginations. Animals and people changing form or nature. The breakdown of Newtonian physics. Hell, even the quantum-level rules might change, with consequences that are literally unimaginable. Two plus two might equal five. Twilight Zone stuff. I don’t know. No one knows. You can’t predict chaos because it’s chaos, Harry.”

...

“No one’s seen a confrontation this big for thousands of years, Harry,” Bob said, and his tone was outright worried. “The laws of magic change over time. I don’t know the answer to your question. I don’t think anyone else knows, either.”

Murphy looked back at me over her shoulder, then down at the bag, before turning her eyes back to the road. After a moment, she said, “My leg and arm don’t hurt anymore.”

Bob grunted. “Yeah. That’s Mab.”

I blinked. “What?”

“Mab. Preparing the field. What, you think she and Titania called up Tir na Nog and practiced against each other all those times for funsies? Mab’s extending psychic power to those fighting on her side. And at the same time, she’s making it more oppressive for her enemies.” Bob jiggled his chin back toward the ground we had lost. “Everything coming in from that side knows, not in its head but deep down in its guts, that it is entering the lair of a predator and that it’s never going home. Knows the odds are against it. Knows that every step forward brings it closer to death.”

“How do you know that?” Murphy asked.

“Because I’m one of the beings Her Most Royal Frozen Naughtybits considers an enemy,” Bob said brightly—but his voice had a brittle, tense undertone. “She’s doing it to me as we speak.”

Murphy glanced back, frowning. “And she’s healing her allies?”

“Don’t be ridiculous,” Bob said. “She’s just making it so you can’t feel the pain. She’ll blunt any non-useful terror you might feel, too. And she’ll encourage your aggressive tendencies. Like maybe enough so that someone who is too physically screwed up to be involved in fighting instead convinces her friends to help her and heads out into the war.”

Murphy snorted. “Yeah. There’s just no way I would have done that otherwise.”

I ran a quick mental inventory and found myself scowling. “How come she isn’t doing any of that for me, then?”

Bob gave me a disgusted look. “You’re the Winter freaking Knight. You get it all the time. Suck it up.”

[Mira]

The numbing of pain is one thing, but damaged muscles and tendons still behave like damaged tendons and muscles.  At the beginning of Peace Talks we learn that Murphy still has more operations to go to repair the considerable damage to her knee and shoulder/elbow etc.  Also if you've ever worn a cast for a number of weeks or months the limb that it was on doesn't go back to normal functioning again as soon as it is taken off, not because of pain, but because the immobile
muscles etc have regain their strength and flexibility etc, it takes more than a few hours.

[K.L.O.E.]

The numbing of pain is one thing, but damaged muscles and tendons still behave like damaged tendons and muscles.  At the beginning of Peace Talks we learn that Murphy still has more operations to go to repair the considerable damage to her knee and shoulder/elbow etc.  Also if you've ever worn a cast for a number of weeks or months the limb that it was on doesn't go back to normal functioning again as soon as it is taken off, not because of pain, but because the immobile
muscles etc have regain their strength and flexibility etc, it takes more than a few hours.

This! A healthy and hale Murphy would barely be strong enough to guide that bike around with Dresden on her back. She went from nearly crippled to stronger than ever in a few hours. Something needed to knit those tendons back together and strengthen her muscles. Maybe they used her life force and that's why the fates stepped in to cut the thread?

[Mira]

This! A healthy and hale Murphy would barely be strong enough to guide that bike around with Dresden on her back. She went from nearly crippled to stronger than ever in a few hours. Something needed to knit those tendons back together and strengthen her muscles. Maybe they used her life force and that's why the fates stepped in to cut the thread?

Even before that in Peace Talks she took down a Valkyrie with a surprise fast move.. The next minute she could barely cover the distance to wherever Lara was waiting for them.  In my opinion just more of the unrealistic writing as far as Murphy goes. 

[K.L.O.E.]

Even before that in Peace Talks she took down a Valkyrie with a surprise fast move.. The next minute she could barely cover the distance to wherever Lara was waiting for them.  In my opinion just more of the unrealistic writing as far as Murphy goes.

I figured that was just slight of hand to get the pins out of the Grenades with her undamaged hand. Less a speed thing than her being underestimated.

[vincentric]

I figured that was just slight of hand to get the pins out of the Grenades with her undamaged hand. Less a speed thing than her being underestimated.

I think Mira is referring to the scene at the mansion, where she closes and draws on Freydis when Freydis wasn't going to let her in.

[K.L.O.E.]

I think Mira is referring to the scene at the mansion, where she closes and draws on Freydis when Freydis wasn't going to let her in.

Oh yeah, that. Right. I think Freydis let her. No point in aggravating Dresden when he's supposed to be working for your bosses.

[Mira]

Oh yeah, that. Right. I think Freydis let her. No point in aggravating Dresden when he's supposed to be working for your bosses.

But again, unrealistic expectations.

[K.L.O.E.]

But again, unrealistic expectations.

Fair point.
So new headcanon is that someone healed her and juiced her up but it started earlier in the week.

[Mira]

Fair point.
So new headcanon is that someone healed her and juiced her up but it started earlier in the week.

Except as I said, after that she was back to limping and barely able to make it across the compound. 
So possible short burst using her good, i.e. less injured side for the take down.  So her motor bike just happens to be near the bar?  Sorry, I cannot remember how that was explained and managed to work when nothing else needed a motor was.  Why wasn't it offered to Harry who was forced to "borrow" a bicycle.  Also a good warrior knows when he should stay out of the fight injured as she was least she become part of the problem.  Considering the deep end Harry went off that almost was irreversible when she killed, it was something she failed to take into consideration when she left her assigned post.  Or how would she have felt if people were hurt or killed in and around the bar in spite of the Placard protections because she wasn't there to do her job?

[KurtinStGeorge]

I would have been far more satisfied with the circumstances of Murphy's death if the battle with the Fomor had driven Harry and company back to Mac's bar or in the street just in front of Mac's place.  Murphy hobbling out into the line of fire might have made sense, assuming everyone else capable of fighting did the same thing to protect the people inside who couldn't offer any real resistance.  Jim could have still had Rudolph show up and shoot Murphy in the lull after a firefight if he really thought that would be necessary for some future storyline he's planning.  (I'm going to start a new thread about what's going to happen or should happen to Rudolph.)

[LaraBeck]

Except as I said, after that she was back to limping and barely able to make it across the compound. 
So possible short burst using her good, i.e. less injured side for the take down.  So her motor bike just happens to be near the bar?  Sorry, I cannot remember how that was explained and managed to work when nothing else needed a motor was.  Why wasn't it offered to Harry who was forced to "borrow" a bicycle. 

I'm not saying this is a good explanation at all.. But here is the in-book explanation that was given:

Battle Ground, Ch 16:
“Uh . . .” Butters said, drawing the sound out. “Now, don’t be mad, Harry.”
“What?” I asked, and I might have sounded a little grumpy.
“Me and Sanya kind of wound up by Mac’s place,” he said.
“Butters,” I said warningly.
“We took a vote,” he said.”

and a few pages later...

“I eyed the motorcycle. Then her. “How?”
“Like I don’t keep this old baby behind wards,” she said. “The Ordo Lebes did it for me years ago. And bikes are the only things that can get through the streets.”

Also a good warrior knows when he should stay out of the fight injured as she was least she become part of the problem.  Considering the deep end Harry went off that almost was irreversible when she killed, it was something she failed to take into consideration when she left her assigned post. Or how would she have felt if people were hurt or killed in and around the bar in spite of the Placard protections because she wasn't there to do her job?

Why should Murphy think about the consequences of her death on Harry? Harry never did the same. If we hold Murphy accountable for not thinking about the consequences of her own death on Harry, shouldn't we hold Harry accountable for not thinking about the consequences of his own death on his daughter, Karrin or Thomas, for example?

In Changes Harry doesn't care the price he pays, it's his price according to him, but they all end up paying the consequences, all his friends. His death had consequences on all of those who went and help him save his daughter. But he couldn't stop to think about that, the most important person in the world for him was in danger.

In Murphy's case in Battle Ground, the most important person in the world was Harry, it's been obvious since Cold Days, that's where (rightly or not) her mind and heart are. I think it's about being in love with him, but also because she believed that he was necessary to save Chicago, certainly more necessary than she herself was. Mac's was supposed to be protected. She wanted to do everything she could to help Harry, and if the price was her life, so be it. In the end it was.

Right, she wasn't thinking straight, but I don't think she had any obligation to think about what Her death would to do Harry, it was more important that he lived first. Same way Harry never did think about that sort of thing, he only thought about what he could or should do to save his daughter back in Changes when he was injured beyond repair and made the bargain that would condemn him. That's some of what they talked about in the boat in PT. We went through that  line of thinking, being responsible for others in Ghost Story and Skin Game. Michael advised that no, Harry was not responsible for not foreseeing all the consequences of the decisions made in Changes, when he gets himself killed. Why should Murphy need to think about what he'll do after her death when there was a chance of him not even surviving the night?

[TrueMonk]

"because normally in a story, when the hero fights the good fight and saves the day, they get rewarded, but Murphy didn't." -someone earlier in the thread.

You guys get that she got to go to the super exclusive warrior heaven right?

There is fighting all day and partying all night, anything a real viking could wish for and I think that was what she was. I don't count it as a tragic ending. It was even pretty painless.

I like Murph and think we will see her again, but I think she deserves some time in warrior heaven :-)

Also i really liked the death scene and think it was perfect, both if Rudy did it on his own and if he was guided.


I agree with the statement above that it is very inappropriate to call Butcher sexist without pointing to specific cases. I would say it is a series full of strong female characters and a protagonist who focuses on only romantically engaging with someone he has really strong feelings for. The main character is a guy, baddies go after people close to him like his brother, kid, friends and partner. Because he is a man, the partners have been women.

About the sword, what do you think about that time where Dresden (the man) misused it against Lea?

[Mira]

Why should Murphy think about the consequences of her death on Harry? Harry never did the same. If we hold Murphy accountable for not thinking about the consequences of her own death on Harry, shouldn't we hold Harry accountable for not thinking about the consequences of his own death on his daughter, Karrin or Thomas, for example?

Because she is supposed to be this thinking wise person..  She is also not thinking of the other people she could put in harm's way because of her injuries nor is she thinking of the people she is charged to protect.

In Changes Harry doesn't care the price he pays, it's his price according to him, but they all end up paying the consequences, all his friends. His death had consequences on all of those who went and help him save his daughter. But he couldn't stop to think about that, the most important person in the world for him was in danger.

Yes, and he was constantly reminded of it later, all the more reason for Murphy to stop and think.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  He also didn't force anyone to go with him, he asked.

In Murphy's case in Battle Ground, the most important person in the world was Harry, it's been obvious since Cold Days, that's where (rightly or not) her mind and heart are. I think it's about being in love with him, but also because she believed that he was necessary to save Chicago, certainly more necessary than she herself was. Mac's was supposed to be protected. She wanted to do everything she could to help Harry, and if the price was her life, so be it. In the end it was.

Oh I think a lot of it was about Murphy..  She thinks she knows best even when she is wrong.

Right, she wasn't thinking straight, but I don't think she had any obligation to think about what Her death would to do Harry, it was more important that he lived first. Same way Harry never did think about that sort of thing, he only thought about what he could or should do to save his daughter back in Changes when he was injured beyond repair and made the bargain that would condemn him. That's some of what they talked about in the boat in PT. We went through that  line of thinking, being responsible for others in Ghost Story and Skin Game. Michael advised that no, Harry was not responsible for not foreseeing all the consequences of the decisions made in Changes, when he gets himself killed. Why should Murphy need to think about what he'll do after her death when there was a chance of him not even surviving the night?

Oh I think Michael is wrong there, on one hand, Harry was suicidal, because he arranged for his death before hand so he wouldn't have to serve Mab.  Suicidal people generally are not responsible for their deaths because they are mentally ill.  In Harry's case this wasn't exactly true.  However Murphy knows first hand the consequences of Harry's death on his friends and family.. She should have known better, and if she saw Harry as a commander in the battle then she should have done her duty. 

About the sword, what do you think about that time where Dresden (the man) misused it against Lea?

To begin with, at that point in time Harry had no understanding on how Holy Swords work, that they wouldn't allow themselves to be misused.  So he struck before Michael could stop him and the Sword fell out of his hands.  He also struck more out of fear for himself than out of judgement that Lea deserved death, that is the main difference between when he struck verses when Murphy tried to kill Nic with an added "damn you!" She judged him.  Harry did pay a heavy price though they did get the Sword back.  It is possible that if he hadn't lost the Sword to Lea, he wouldn't have attended the party.  It is also possible without the without him being there Susan may have actually gotten away with being a party crasher... Then again, she might have been eaten outright.