Author Topic: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?  (Read 10017 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2021, 06:49:38 PM »
Ebenezer had only one goal, to keep Haar alive and for that he needed to change is nature, to make him internalise the laws of magic. To make him not just not breaking the laws but make it impossible to do so. Him being the blackstaf did not help.

Yup, which also meant that he nixed teaching Harry any new magic that might make him seen as even a greater threat to the Council.  Big clue, he wasn't allowed into the teleport section of the library at headquarters/

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2021, 01:15:28 PM »
Perhaps, but not as much as he might have, had Harry been an ordinary apprentice.  Also considering Eb's juice as a wizard?  His duels with Harry may have been like Harry teaching
Molly defense with snow balls.  The Council was afraid of Harry as a sixteen year old, to keep
him alive, Eb would have done his best to limit his grand son, and he did.  I still argue he didn't teach Harry a whole lot of new magic.  It still doesn't answer the question as to why Eb didn't insist that Harry return to high school and finish his education, even if it amounted only to formal Latin class and shop, both would have helped him.
Yeah, I don't disagree he might have taught Harry more in a "standard" apprenticeship. But then again, part of it was also to do with the fact that Eb felt he was too harsh on Margaret and so perhaps not. And of course, I am not saying Eb went full out when he did practice duels with Harry. Harry didn't even really know how powerful Eb was until at least when Eb tells him about some of the disasters he caused. Let alone what he saw in Changes and even Battle Ground. If he had duelled Eb for real, he would have died even without Eb's licence to kill. But what you're saying doesn't actually prove that Eb didn't teach Harry magic, or deliberately limited his knowledge (whatever the reason). I think that Harry had been through enough without trying to force him to finish high school with limited benefits, apart from perhaps trying to teach him to see things through, and perhaps also try and socialise him and keep things as 'normal' as possible. I doubt it would have made a real difference. Besides, I think it was as much for Eb's protection as Harry's. With Harry out in the open they were both vulnerable.

Ebenezer had only one goal, to keep Haar alive and for that he needed to change is nature, to make him internalise the laws of magic. To make him not just not breaking the laws but make it impossible to do so. Him being the blackstaf did not help.
Not sure it was just one goal as such, but certainly there was at least a central goal. But I do agree by and large with the idea. I think that whatever Harry is, and whatever Harry is being shaped into, Eb is both aware of it (and perhaps not all of it is to do with being a starborn, although that seems to be the main bit) and was trying to make sure Harry had the choice not to become whatever everyone is trying to make him. To make sure he understood that no one could force him to do anything he didn't want to do. To that extent, I'd say he succeeded.

Yup, which also meant that he nixed teaching Harry any new magic that might make him seen as even a greater threat to the Council.  Big clue, he wasn't allowed into the teleport section of the library at headquarters/
Well...I think the Council have bigger worries than whether Harry knew how to do advanced Thaumaturgy etc. Especially concerning Harry. Harry wasn't allowed in the 'forbidden section' because the Council is pretty serious about things being forbidden, and Harry is both some young punk troublemaker (to them) and not a well-respected researcher...who might be allowed such knowledge for purely academic purposes. You get more flies with honey etc. Wouldn't surprise me to learn Margaret Le Fay, Justin etc. had been in there. Probably any and all of the Senior Council (past and present).
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Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2021, 02:02:10 PM »
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Yeah, I don't disagree he might have taught Harry more in a "standard" apprenticeship. But then again, part of it was also to do with the fact that Eb felt he was too harsh on Margaret and so perhaps not. And of course, I am not saying Eb went full out when he did practice duels with Harry. Harry didn't even really know how powerful Eb was until at least when Eb tells him about some of the disasters he caused. Let alone what he saw in Changes and even Battle Ground. If he had duelled Eb for real, he would have died even without Eb's licence to kill. But what you're saying doesn't actually prove that Eb didn't teach Harry magic, or deliberately limited his knowledge (whatever the reason). I think that Harry had been through enough without trying to force him to finish high school with limited benefits, apart from perhaps trying to teach him to see things through, and perhaps also try and socialise him and keep things as 'normal' as possible. I doubt it would have made a real difference. Besides, I think it was as much for Eb's protection as Harry's. With Harry out in the open they were both vulnerable.

We have Harry's own words that Eb didn't teach him magic.  Harry tells us what Justin taught him and Elaine, he tells stories about that, but nothing beyond "ethics" as far as Eb is concerned.  That
isn't to say that Eb didn't teach him any magic, but while Harry tells us how Justin taught him fire magic and defense magic, no stories about Eb.. Now he does tell how he burned the barn down, but it wasn't because Eb taught him fire magic.

Well, socialization is important isn't it.  So if Harry only got that it would be huge, but he also could have taken formal Latin classes.  Since all the important business of the Council is done in Latin, knowing Latin would be important, so why was Harry forced to do it through a correspondent course?
He thus comes to Council meetings ill equipped to fully understand the meaning of what is being said, and condescended to by the likes of the Merlin because of it.   

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2021, 02:52:08 PM »
We have Harry's own words that Eb didn't teach him magic.  Harry tells us what Justin taught him and Elaine, he tells stories about that, but nothing beyond "ethics" as far as Eb is concerned.  That
isn't to say that Eb didn't teach him any magic, but while Harry tells us how Justin taught him fire magic and defense magic, no stories about Eb.. Now he does tell how he burned the barn down, but it wasn't because Eb taught him fire magic.

Well, socialization is important isn't it.  So if Harry only got that it would be huge, but he also could have taken formal Latin classes.  Since all the important business of the Council is done in Latin, knowing Latin would be important, so why was Harry forced to do it through a correspondent course?
He thus comes to Council meetings ill equipped to fully understand the meaning of what is being said, and condescended to by the likes of the Merlin because of it.   
Well, even if it's true that Harry said Eb didn't teach him magic (could you cite the reference?) - then Harry also has contradicted himself. How is Eb teaching Harry how to create magical artefacts such as staves, rods etc or Eb practice dueling with Harry not teaching him? Why else have a practice duel? Just because Harry hasn't discussed all his lessons with Eb isn't evidence of no lessons. Also on the one hand you say Eb didn't teach Harry magic, then you say he did...which is it?

Well he might as well have just learned Latin from Ebenezar as much as anything else. That in itself seems a fairly huge oversight.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2021, 03:05:46 PM »
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. . . and just freaking vanished. I don’t mean that he went behind a veil, or teleported, or opened a portal to the Nevernever. I can do those things,

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Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2021, 04:22:44 PM »
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Well, even if it's true that Harry said Eb didn't teach him magic (could you cite the reference?) - then Harry also has contradicted himself. How is Eb teaching Harry how to create magical artefacts such as staves, rods etc or Eb practice dueling with Harry not teaching him? Why else have a practice duel? Just because Harry hasn't discussed all his lessons with Eb isn't evidence of no lessons. Also on the one hand you say Eb didn't teach Harry magic, then you say he did...which is it?

Well he might as well have just learned Latin from Ebenezar as much as anything else. That in itself seems a fairly huge oversight.

But that is the whole freaking point, why didn't Eb teach him Latin?  Or why didn't Eb tell him he needed to finish school, take Latin class so he'd understand and fit in at Council meetings? That is just common sense isn't it?  The evidence that Eb didn't teach him much magic is Harry's own word that he didn't. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2021, 04:28:33 PM »
Ebenezer clearly teaches Harry some magic like creating wizard staves but the emphasis was not on learning magic but on learning when not to use it. Ebenezer was the reasonable did not eventuate magic to heat his shower because that was using magic for selfish reasons and that would start a sliding process ending in cackling law breaking craziness.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2021, 05:42:09 PM »
Ebenezer clearly teaches Harry some magic like creating wizard staves but the emphasis was not on learning magic but on learning when not to use it. Ebenezer was the reasonable did not eventuate magic to heat his shower because that was using magic for selfish reasons and that would start a sliding process ending in cackling law breaking craziness.

Yes, pretty minor stuff, Harry has always known what a bad ass Eb was.  However Eb didn't teach any of the stuff or even the basics for what we saw Eb do in their duel.  Eb was about ethics etc, Harry bought into all of it, that is why he felt so betrayed when he learned that Eb was the Blackstaff, the Council assassin...  If he had wanted to, Eb could have taught Harry stuff that made
Justin's teaching seem like kindergarten.  However Eb also know what a razor's edge Harry was balancing on, the last thing he wanted was for Harry to become more powerful than he already was, then his death would indeed have been demanded.  Perhaps that was the point of seeing to it that he didn't learn Latin as well, to keep him non threatening.  You will notice that Harry saw to it that Molly learn Latin, thus improving his own in the process.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2021, 07:52:49 PM »
But that is the whole freaking point, why didn't Eb teach him Latin?  Or why didn't Eb tell him he needed to finish school, take Latin class so he'd understand and fit in at Council meetings? That is just common sense isn't it?  The evidence that Eb didn't teach him much magic is Harry's own word that he didn't.

Eb gave him his space because Harry was against authority, and angry (I know a real shocker).  He knew Harry was young, and had plenty of time to learn magic.  We consider school age a great time to learn magic but wizards who live hundreds of years see things differently I'd think. 

Didn't Eb mention that Harry's Latin was rusty, or asked if he'd been practicing a long way back?  I think he did.  Eb probably tried to teach Harry different things, but Harry has always been bone headed.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2021, 08:41:58 PM »
Eb gave him his space because Harry was against authority, and angry (I know a real shocker).  He knew Harry was young, and had plenty of time to learn magic.  We consider school age a great time to learn magic but wizards who live hundreds of years see things differently I'd think. 

Didn't Eb mention that Harry's Latin was rusty, or asked if he'd been practicing a long way back?  I think he did.  Eb probably tried to teach Harry different things, but Harry has always been bone headed.

I agree that Eb after the soul gaze feared pushing Harry too much, mostly because of Margaret.  However I still think if Eb had sent Harry to high school to finish and learn his Latin from a professional teacher it would have gone better.  I don't think Eb tried either, because the way
Harry idolized him early on, I'd have thought he'd have applied himself a lot more than he did to learning the language.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2021, 02:26:00 AM »
I agree that Eb after the soul gaze feared pushing Harry too much, mostly because of Margaret.  However I still think if Eb had sent Harry to high school to finish and learn his Latin from a professional teacher it would have gone better.  I don't think Eb tried either, because the way
Harry idolized him early on, I'd have thought he'd have applied himself a lot more than he did to learning the language.

Harry saw the Council as his enemies (for wanting to cut his head off).  He may have deliberately didn't want to learn Latin because it made him feel in some way that he was following their rules, when he didn't really want to be associated with them.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2021, 03:10:20 PM »
Harry saw the Council as his enemies (for wanting to cut his head off).  He may have deliberately didn't want to learn Latin because it made him feel in some way that he was following their rules, when he didn't really want to be associated with them.

Except the importance of understanding what they were saying isn't about obeying the rules so much as just knowing what is going on.  If there aren't a whole lot of members on the Council that he can trust to tell him the truth, he needs to be able to understand fully what is being said for himself.  I also disagree about Harry's feelings towards the Council, for a guy who didn't want to be associated with them he sure talked them up a lot in spite of everything.

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2021, 06:10:28 PM »
Except the importance of understanding what they were saying isn't about obeying the rules so much as just knowing what is going on.  If there aren't a whole lot of members on the Council that he can trust to tell him the truth, he needs to be able to understand fully what is being said for himself.  I also disagree about Harry's feelings towards the Council, for a guy who didn't want to be associated with them he sure talked them up a lot in spite of everything.

He wore a bathrobe to an important meeting that was about him staying on as a member......  He has respect for the Council's power, and on some level is proud to be a wizard, but I don't think he's a big fan.  Over the years he's gotten better towards them, but in the beginning he was pretty openly defiant towards them.  His darker urges was to destroy them when he felt the dark power of the house in Storm Front. He punched Morgan in the mouth too.  I mean he really didn't like them.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2021, 07:54:12 PM »
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He wore a bathrobe to an important meeting that was about him staying on as a member...

Yeah, well that had more to do with his state of mind than his respect or disrespect of the Council.  If you will remember, 1] Harry was in what could only be called a clinical depression over Susan.  He let everything from his hair to his place go to hell in a hand basket.  2] Mister had either thrown up or pooped in the robe he normally would wear to meetings.  There was no time to clean it, given his state of mind he figured a bath robe was better than no robe at all.  I really don't think it was about him being a smart ass.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Mavra and necromancy. Will anyone on the Council be curious about that?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2021, 09:52:02 AM »
Yeah, well that had more to do with his state of mind than his respect or disrespect of the Council.  If you will remember, 1] Harry was in what could only be called a clinical depression over Susan.  He let everything from his hair to his place go to hell in a hand basket.  2] Mister had either thrown up or pooped in the robe he normally would wear to meetings.  There was no time to clean it, given his state of mind he figured a bath robe was better than no robe at all.  I really don't think it was about him being a smart ass.
Depression or no depression, it was still him turning up to a meeting after causing the single largest loss of life for the White Council ever inflicted by an enemy in nothing but a bathrobe and showing that he didn't even bother to learn Latin fully. Bad first impressions stick.
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