Author Topic: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?  (Read 7448 times)

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« on: March 16, 2021, 10:28:44 PM »
This is a being we never see, never hear but has a major impact upon the Dresdenverse. We get hints in series and in WOJ, but here are my speculations.

(1) The White God stabilised reality by clearing the other major players off the board, some are in Demonreach, some are just gone, some knuckled under and agreed not to interfere in reality, staying like Hades in the Never Never, or taking a lesser role like Odin. It did this by agreeing not to otherwise intervene. Ethnui never agreed and hid until BG.

(2) as part of the agreement the White God established thresholds and the sunrise rule to protect humanity from the Supernatural, as well as the other limitations on Fae, vampires etc. We have evidence in universe as to Thresholds, Kringle can bypass them on Christmas Night without losing power or express invitation (Christmas Eve) even the Carpenters. He lunches annually with Uriel, servant of the White God, ergo the White God controls Thresholds, allowing Kringle through all Thresholds.

(3) Starborn, what little we know suggests this is a heavenly event, it is too contrived for it to be otherwise than on purpose, so this suggests that this is again another arrangement.

Perhaps the White God was powerful enough to take on all comers from either inside or outside reality, but could not win a war on two fronts, simultaneous attacks from Inside and Out. The Arrangements effectively mean the White God is pretty much policing them full time, and only really has Uriel, who can’t do anything to intervene in mortal realities.

We don’t see the White God because he does pretty much nothing, we don’t see the White God because he is doing pretty much everything.

Offline Arjan

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2021, 02:02:57 AM »
All the fae can ignore thresholds if they just behave. Bringing presents of course helps. The white god is just a god like the rest and everything ran fine before he showed up and will be fine after he is gone when nobody believes in him anymore.

But Mister accepts all worship and won’t disagree with you if you give him credit for all kinds of wonderful things. It is as it should be.
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2021, 10:14:57 AM »
Kringle isn’t just Fae, and I would point you to Black Peter and Krampus (is Krampus actually Elder Gruff? It would make a kind of symmetry, the day the Good People actually live up to their name being the day the ‘good’ Summer Fae can be bad towards mortals) known associates of Kringle who do not behave well or bring presents. Harry had an obligation to Mab when she entered his property, and he never had much of a threshold.

The White God looks to be significantly more powerful than gods or Titans, even Archangels appear to be so, but is so hedged in the use of that power that there is little they can do, probably for fear of breaking reality and doing the Outsiders job for them. Something sets the rules for the supernatural world, if there is something more powerful than Archangels or the White God that’s a worry.

Mister is ‘just’ a cat and all cats accept all worship

Offline Arjan

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2021, 12:59:12 PM »
Kringle isn’t just Fae, and I would point you to Black Peter and Krampus (is Krampus actually Elder Gruff? It would make a kind of symmetry, the day the Good People actually live up to their name being the day the ‘good’ Summer Fae can be bad towards mortals) known associates of Kringle who do not behave well or bring presents.
Kringle is winter fae when in function. Vadderung is a completely different person, legally.

Mab and Cat Sith can enter houses without invitation if they behave, it is just how it works in the dresdenverse and there are millennia’s of stories and traditions backing it up.

Krampus  has not been seen in the dresdenverse but he is santaclaus servant.

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Harry had an obligation to Mab when she entered his property, and he never had much of a threshold.
Mab had no problem entering the carpenters home on Christmas Eve and that home has an enormous threshold.
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The White God looks to be significantly more powerful than gods or Titans, even Archangels appear to be so,

He still has millions of active worshippers, of course he is.
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but is so hedged in the use of that power that there is little they can do, probably for fear of breaking reality and doing the Outsiders job for them.
Sure but someone like ferrofax already has similar problems.
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Something sets the rules for the supernatural world, if there is something more powerful than Archangels or the White God that’s a worry.
Why? If it is more powerful than it can even do less. Ik
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Mister is ‘just’ a cat and all cats accept all worship
Heresy! Mister is the current bearer of the white gods mantle. It explains why he is not doing that much. He is taking a nap.
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Offline Mira

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2021, 03:25:45 PM »
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Heresy! Mister is the current bearer of the white gods mantle. It explains why he is not doing that much. He is taking a nap.

That is when he isn't deciding life and death for small rodents and flying creatures.

Offline K.L.O.E.

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2021, 04:56:01 PM »
Do you think the crucifixion was when TWG decided to lay down the law for Gods and Monsters? It sort of fits as being the end of the era of myths and the start of recorded history.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2021, 05:27:32 PM »
Do you think the crucifixion was when TWG decided to lay down the law for Gods and Monsters? It sort of fits as being the end of the era of myths and the start of recorded history.
Actually that is when mister got the mantle.

There always have been laws for gods and monsters. They just change sometimes the same way magic and it’s side effects change. Because human stories change.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 07:32:45 PM by Arjan »
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Offline K.L.O.E.

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2021, 07:24:02 PM »
Actually that is when mister got the mantle.

There always have been landforms gods and monsters. They just change sometimes the same way magic and it’s side effects change. Because human stories change.

Yeah but Mister clearly installed a rules patch of some description that prevented most of the Gods and Monsters from walking around at full power, and using the blood sacrifice of the crucifixion would probably be enough power to handle the install. Why else was Vadderung forced to walk the world as a mortal?
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2021, 04:55:32 PM »
Yeah but Mister clearly installed a rules patch of some description that prevented most of the Gods and Monsters from walking around at full power, and using the blood sacrifice of the crucifixion would probably be enough power to handle the install. Why else was Vadderung forced to walk the world as a mortal?

Offered that or Demonreach or exile to the Never Never, and as a ‘helpful’ god he was given a choice, I suspect a lot weren’t and are in Demonreach

And Arjan my prediction is that Mister dies of old age over Twelve Months.

The crucifixion did something, too may artifacts of significance were used in it but this was only two millennia ago, many mythologies pre date it BUT you saw afterwards the displacement of ‘pagan’ symbols, holidays, iconography etc. Whilst the ‘deal’ may have been negotiated for the preceding millennia to it, the Crucifixtion my have been the White God’s “X” on the paperwork, making it irrevocable, literally signed in the White God’s blood. The Placard would likely have been the template for Thresholds. The Nails held Christ physically and spiritually in place. The Spear of Destiny would have tipped the outcome in favour of success using again the White God’s blood in the same way Harry used it in the binding of Ethnui. The Crown of Thorns unknown, the Grail is supposed to catch blood and is by myth a purifier, could it have been used to distil the power of the White God’s Blood? the Shroud is after the event, to protect the physical body of a Christ?

Offline Arjan

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2021, 07:47:25 PM »
Offered that or Demonreach or exile to the Never Never, and as a ‘helpful’ god he was given a choice, I suspect a lot weren’t and are in Demonreach
We have met some of the gods and there are clear indications we will meet more of them for example in the wrestling book.
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And Arjan my prediction is that Mister dies of old age over Twelve Months.
Heretic! False prophet! Blasphemer!

You are clearly wrong.
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The crucifixion did something, too may artifacts of significance were used in it but this was only two millennia ago, many mythologies pre date it BUT you saw afterwards the displacement of ‘pagan’ symbols, holidays, iconography etc. Whilst the ‘deal’ may have been negotiated for the preceding millennia to it, the Crucifixtion my have been the White God’s “X” on the paperwork, making it irrevocable, literally signed in the White God’s blood. The Placard would likely have been the template for Thresholds. The Nails held Christ physically and spiritually in place. The Spear of Destiny would have tipped the outcome in favour of success using again the White God’s blood in the same way Harry used it in the binding of Ethnui. The Crown of Thorns unknown, the Grail is supposed to catch blood and is by myth a purifier, could it have been used to distil the power of the White God’s Blood? the Shroud is after the event, to protect the physical body of a Christ?
All those artifacts probably predated Christianity for millennia and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they have all kinds of pagan stories attached to them just like Butters sword has become something totally new.

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2021, 09:40:08 PM »
The artifacts do indeed pre date the crucifixtion, and the athame for example was something else before the Spear of Longinus, the nails probably not, angels likely volunteered to become swords. It must be so boring to be an angel that volunteering to be a nail and then a sword, is literally a blessed relief.

Stay out of mortal affairs seems to have been the decree, of course Odin didn’t and worked out his solution. Hades still has influence but doesn’t leave the Never Never. Ethnui didn’t and ended up at the receiving end of Uriel’s Starborn and a couple of Knights, before despatch to Demonreach.

Offline K.L.O.E.

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2021, 12:36:52 PM »
The artifacts do indeed pre date the crucifixtion, and the athame for example was something else before the Spear of Longinus, the nails probably not, angels likely volunteered to become swords. It must be so boring to be an angel that volunteering to be a nail and then a sword, is literally a blessed relief.

Stay out of mortal affairs seems to have been the decree, of course Odin didn’t and worked out his solution. Hades still has influence but doesn’t leave the Never Never. Ethnui didn’t and ended up at the receiving end of Uriel’s Starborn and a couple of Knights, before despatch to Demonreach.

The artifacts of the crucifixion having a prior history is interesting. Who were they sanctified to originally and were they given up voluntarily? Though using the artifacts as the framework for new protection makes sense, the placard and thresholds etc. is  too close to not be intentional.

If you were an angel with limited free will and you got a chance to go help fight the good fight on the mortal realm wouldn't you jump at the chance?

Does the timeline work for Jesus to potentially be a Starborn as well?
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Offline Mira

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2021, 04:51:42 PM »
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Does the timeline work for Jesus to potentially be a Starborn as well?

Actually that makes sense, "God gave His only begotten Son..."  That is what was done for us, the rest of it is up to us.

Offline Avernite

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2021, 09:26:55 PM »
The artifacts of the crucifixion having a prior history is interesting. Who were they sanctified to originally and were they given up voluntarily? Though using the artifacts as the framework for new protection makes sense, the placard and thresholds etc. is  too close to not be intentional.

If you were an angel with limited free will and you got a chance to go help fight the good fight on the mortal realm wouldn't you jump at the chance?

Does the timeline work for Jesus to potentially be a Starborn as well?
3*666=1998, so it works if you assume TWC was born a few years before the year 0 (Harry being from a few years before 1998 ;) )

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: What Has The White God Ever Done For Us?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2021, 05:12:46 AM »
This is a being we never see, never hear but has a major impact upon the Dresdenverse. We get hints in series and in WOJ, but here are my speculations.

(1) The White God stabilised reality by clearing the other major players off the board, some are in Demonreach, some are just gone, some knuckled under and agreed not to interfere in reality, staying like Hades in the Never Never, or taking a lesser role like Odin. It did this by agreeing not to otherwise intervene. Ethnui never agreed and hid until BG.

(2) as part of the agreement the White God established thresholds and the sunrise rule to protect humanity from the Supernatural, as well as the other limitations on Fae, vampires etc. We have evidence in universe as to Thresholds, Kringle can bypass them on Christmas Night without losing power or express invitation (Christmas Eve) even the Carpenters. He lunches annually with Uriel, servant of the White God, ergo the White God controls Thresholds, allowing Kringle through all Thresholds.

(3) Starborn, what little we know suggests this is a heavenly event, it is too contrived for it to be otherwise than on purpose, so this suggests that this is again another arrangement.

Perhaps the White God was powerful enough to take on all comers from either inside or outside reality, but could not win a war on two fronts, simultaneous attacks from Inside and Out. The Arrangements effectively mean the White God is pretty much policing them full time, and only really has Uriel, who can’t do anything to intervene in mortal realities.

We don’t see the White God because he does pretty much nothing, we don’t see the White God because he is doing pretty much everything.
Your final point is one that has been brought up by theologists before, and is certainly a plausible reason for the seeming lack of direct interaction from TWG.

TWG created everything, the whole Dresden Universe and all the parallel realities. Jim has flat out stated that several times. The Archangels are apparently on the level of major deities like Zeus etc. Odin perhaps would have been that powerful but chose (unlike Zeus perhaps) to give up most of his power in order to operate. Rather like how a wizard must give up most of his power at the threshold unless invited in. Perhaps that's the point. But Jim has effectively stated that all the other gods are below TWG, because the Creator made reality and because that was such an incomprehensible and amazing event even the gods get confused about what actually happened. I mean, before Creation cause and effect weren't a thing and neither was time. So TWG is above regular gods...but that isn't to say we really understand what that means. TWG could represent the Christian Almighty, the Hebrew God, Allah, Yahweh, El Adonai, Aten, Ahura Mazda and many others. But clearly is more than any of that. All those names represent concepts to try and understand the Creator being of the Dresdenverse perhaps and probably are just as right as they might be wrong. Jim said a whole thing on how the gods and other such powerful spirits (including TWG) and probably the Outsiders, are so big and powerful that humans can't really understand them and try and fit them into boxes and then get confused why it doesn't work and have arguments about it. He had a whole metaphor about 3 blind men and an elephant (google it if you need).

I don't agree that Ethniu "hiding" allowed her to escape notice and retain her strength. Remember, all the Gods and Proto-Gods were mighty once since the beginning even if they have retreated or been killed/imprisoned or lessened themselves now. Ethniu isn't Archangel level - although her father Balor (being the chief deity of a pantheon like Zeus) probably was. It was his Eye that could kill Uriel and other such beings. It isn't clear when most of the gods disappeared. I doubt it was one event but something that occurred slowly over time. Ethniu is simply the "last" (debateable) of the proto-gods or titans. I don't think there was a big sit-down meeting as such, I think it was more the endless fighting coupled with humanity's own changes that did it. Remember, Ethniu calls out how because humanity has progressed they have destroyed too many holy places and this weakened the divine, how humanity basically growing up meant that the gods were no longer quite as necessary as they once might have been.

The starborn cycle, and it's associated events (there appears to be one convergence of the stars that allows for the creation of starborn, and one that happens later that uses whatever starborn are alive - and Jim keeps hinting that it is pretty bad whatever it is) - I wouldn't think it's a "holy" thing. More like unholy. The first event happens every 666 years, and Jim has confirmed it is connected to Lucifer and implied it's connected to whatever Lucifer was doing at the beginning.

Also, TWG has 3 other Archangels to help him out (Michael, Rafael and Gabriel). Uriel might be the one WE see most, but we are often told he the one least seen. I suspect we haven't really been shown what the others get up to (although we do know that the Archangel Michael gave Sanya his Sword). But Uriel isn't alone. Also there are thousands, perhaps millions of angels also helping.

The reason TWG and other large beings don't show up is because reality and Creation can barely handle it. That's why we probably don't see TWG, or rather, we don't see TWG as we expect to. Gard makes a point about how Vadderung is merely a facet of the actual being that he represents, condensed down into something the mortal world and mind can handle. I TWG does something similar, and he is many orders of magnitude more powerful. Perhaps the Archangels are merely facets of the greater being that is TWG. Perhaps all the Angels are. Most people would expect a single being to interact with. But why? If TWG is all-powerful and omnipresent, why would there be a single point? In fact, by definition TWG would have to be everywhere and therefore couldn't have a single origin point. So even if a character talked to a being that called itself TWG or something like it...it would only be a fraction of itself anyway, by definition. Just a mouthpiece.
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