Molly's new magic

[TheCuriousFan]

He couldn't make it or he didn't have the time?  Will power?  Yeah, that is the juice that sets Harry apart.  Marcone doesn't know jack squat, it is Namshiel that has the knowledge and he is a freaking fallen angel, take him away and Marcone is just a very smart vanilla mortal.  You are leaving out the part about how Harry became Warden of Demonreach in the first place.  Had he been second rate he wouldn't have survived the confrontation with Alfred, or figured out how to pull it off.  Well, Carlos wasn't much of a match for Mavra and company, was he?  Not even close and he couldn't save his fellow wardens..  So who's behind the curve exactly?

So I take it you're just ignoring Harry saying that it's Marcone casting those spells after seeing him in action?

Harry did avail himself to a lot of Lasciel's knowledge, that is how he was able to translate Kemmler's book among other things.  Harry is more than a magical thug, if he were, he would have handled Lara on Demonreach a lot differently. 

There's a difference between reluctantly using things when pushed against the wall and going all in. Harry's not exactly beating senior council members in their specialties like she offered now is he? Marcone on the other hand by all indications has taken up that offer of tutelage and shot right past Harry in skill.

[TrueMonk]

It is almost like one of them is a gangster with very limited restrictions (moral and otherwise) and the other is trying to be a decent human being and is concerned about his soul.

At least to me it seems that Harry definitely took the wise choice between him and Marcone.

What do you think he should have been doing on those months when he was trapped on the island that he did not do? And how did Man get him to prepare for running am obstacle course without him knowing?

[TheCuriousFan]

It is almost like one of them is a gangster with very limited restrictions (moral and otherwise) and the other is trying to be a decent human being and is concerned about his soul.

At least to me it seems that Harry definitely took the wise choice between him and Marcone.

What do you think he should have been doing on those months when he was trapped on the island that he did not do? And how did Man get him to prepare for running am obstacle course without him knowing?

Oh to be sure there will be consequences for Marcone going all-in on the denarian train (there might already be depending on if the scene with civilians and the castle was a façade or not).

I mean, Harry kicks himself for not prepping properly in Skin Game and not even making a shield bracelet, that's one easy example.

[The_Sibelis]

Harry did avail himself to a lot of Lasciel's knowledge, that is how he was able to translate Kemmler's book among other things.  Harry is more than a magical thug, if he were, he would have handled Lara on Demonreach a lot differently.

handle Lara on... What? You mean how he set up a classic ambush situation where he had the edge and basically brute forces his victory? That was no next level magic. Just decent planning.

We must be reading different books

nope, just entirely different subjects. I'm only talking magical skills, not good vs evil

[morriswalters]

I would say something pithy, if I had any idea where good and evil appeared in the conversation.

On Harry's time on Demonreach from the end of Cold Days.

I’d spent the last year acquainting myself with the island’s secrets, with the defenses that I hadn’t even known existed—defenses that could be activated only by the Warden. If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed. Even Mab, as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach’s soil.

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 6). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

My brother and I had built the Whatsup Dock down at the shore at one of Demonreach’s three little beaches, the one nearest the opening in the stone reefs surrounding the island.

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 7). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Now, the wooden skull was covered in neat, if crowded, inscriptions of runes and sigils much like those on my staff. “Four months it took me to make this,” I said, and held it out to Butters.

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 88). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

docked I hopped over the rail and onto the pier with a large duffel bag in one hand and my new wizard’s staff in the other.

Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 13). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[groinkick]

Found it by accident, it's about forty two minutes into the Black Gate interview in 2018. Though I'm going to assume Jim was talking about for his age group considering Eb has better versions of Harry's staff and coat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHJU5NwFiXk

Hey thank you for linking!

I think some of the other readers on the topic should go and watch this and jump to the 42 minute mark.  I do believe Jim is pointing out that in some areas of magic, Harry is a badass.  He is dangerous, and skilled.  Jim put it really well.  Some forms of martial arts don't fit certain people.  Harry is very very good at some forms of magic, and not so good in others. 

[groinkick]

Couldn't probably. But doing it in such short time is also skill. Everything else you've mentioned still isn't skill. He's a big magical thug still mostly.
And as for Marcone, Harry had a fallen angel for years, nobodies fault but his own he didn't avail himself of her knowledge base.

Major difference here.  People who fully take up a Coin basically get built in super powers.  Nicodemus can fly for example.  His daughter would transform into a someone with long razor tentacles that came out of her head.  The Coin Marcone took up gives the user the power of a wizard, a wizard with Fallen knowledge...  Besides Drakul what wizard have we seen doing what Marcone was doing?  I can't think of a single one.  Marcone isn't just a quick learner.  He's doing magic that wizards who are hundreds of years old aren't able to do. 

"His gadgets he builds are second to none in the wizard world, even though he's a punk kid" - Jim

Jim did a pretty good job talking about it.  Harry is a heavy hitter with direct magic.  It's what he's suited for, and he should direct his focus on that.  Strong will, heavy hitter, and great at building magical objects. 

I understand the frustration with Dresden and his magic, but I kind of see why Jim is doing it I think.  He doesn't want Dresden to be Superman.  If Harry can just out magic everyone, he's too powerful.  Jim wants Harry to have to fight, and depend on others, and get lucky sometimes.  He wants Harry to just be strong enough to barely survive.

[Mira]

handle Lara on... What? You mean how he set up a classic ambush situation where he had the edge and basically brute forces his victory? That was no next level magic. Just decent planning.

Decent planning? Well, that's magic as well in it's way.  Brute force?  It is Lara who was going for a
all out frontal attack relying on her vamp super strength and speed. Harry merely turned the ground under her feet,  if I remember correctly to quick sand and buried her up to her neck so she wouldn't harm anyone and would listen to reason, he did the same with her Valkyrie back up.

Major difference here.  People who fully take up a Coin basically get built in super powers.  Nicodemus can fly for example.  His daughter would transform into a someone with long razor tentacles that came out of her head.  The Coin Marcone took up gives the user the power of a wizard, a wizard with Fallen knowledge...  Besides Drakul what wizard have we seen doing what Marcone was doing?  I can't think of a single one.  Marcone isn't just a quick learner.  He's doing magic that wizards who are hundreds of years old aren't able to do.

Exactly, and that was the temptation of the coin for Marcone, he's wanted the piece of the magical action since Harry blew the doors off of one of his establishments back in I believe it was Fool Moon. He's had to do it through others, but now with the coin, he can do it for himself.

So I take it you're just ignoring Harry saying that it's Marcone casting those spells after seeing him in action?

That was Namshiel not Marcone..  Before he took up Namshiel's coin Marcone never so much as drew a magic circle, something Butters was able to do back in Dead Beat. 

There's a difference between reluctantly using things when pushed against the wall and going all in. Harry's not exactly beating senior council members in their specialties like she offered now is he? Marcone on the other hand by all indications has taken up that offer of tutelage and shot right past Harry in skill.

You think he is being taught? Or is he being used?  There is a difference you know.  Harry teased him a bit about it as well.  Consider, what if it was Harry and not Marcone that took up Namshiel's coin? Then you'd have something truly terrifying. There is a reason why certain books on magic were forbidden to Harry, the Council knew he had to juice to pull off what was in them.

I think some of the other readers on the topic should go and watch this and jump to the 42 minute mark.  I do believe Jim is pointing out that in some areas of magic, Harry is a badass.  He is dangerous, and skilled.  Jim put it really well.  Some forms of martial arts don't fit certain people.  Harry is very very good at some forms of magic, and not so good in others. 

Exactly, and what Harry is good at, he is indeed very good... And he is still learning, he has no natural ability at veils like Molly, however he has worked at it, does a decent one now, and uses it, something he never did much before.

[groinkick]

handle Lara on... What? You mean how he set up a classic ambush situation where he had the edge and basically brute forces his victory? That was no next level magic.

He could have just froze her into a block of ice, and shattered her.  He's done it before.  What next level magic would you want to see him use?  He can vaporize someone with fire, freeze them solid with ice, can send them flying with wind. 

[Mira]

He could have just froze her into a block of ice, and shattered her.  He's done it before.  What next level magic would you want to see him use?  He can vaporize someone with fire, freeze them solid with ice, can send them flying with wind.

That indeed would have been brute force thuggish behavior..

[The_Sibelis]

He could have just froze her into a block of ice, and shattered her.  He's done it before.  What next level magic would you want to see him use?  He can vaporize someone with fire, freeze them solid with ice, can send them flying with wind.

well considering anyone who knows a little about sanctum invocations can do what he did.... Teleport behind her and knock her out? Simple, easy, effective AND actually involving advanced magic unlike most everything that's been argued for Harry not being behind the curve when showcasing that was likely entirely intentional on Jim's part. Harry's fallen behind and multiple allusions were made to that effect especially around the time of Carlos and Marcones respective scenes.

[vincentric]

well considering anyone who knows a little about sanctum invocations can do what he did.... Teleport behind her and knock her out? Simple, easy, effective AND actually involving advanced magic unlike most everything that's been argued for Harry not being behind the curve when showcasing that was likely entirely intentional on Jim's part. Harry's fallen behind and multiple allusions were made to that effect especially around the time of Carlos and Marcones respective scenes.

So far in this series only Drakul and Namshiel/Marcone have shown up with that short range teleport ability. It's pretty high level stuff and Harry was prevented from learning it by the Council for his and their safety I suspect.

Still I do see one area where Harry is behind other wizards his age. He is simply not as skilled at reducing the energy costs of magic. Some of that may be just innate talent  and some may just be learning over time. His exceptional strength(and lately the mantle) might be working against him here. Plus, as Eb pointed out in their duel, he's learning that a full power punch may not always be the best strategy.

And you need to cut some slack for dramatic situations here. It would be all kinds of disappointing if the hero walked away from the climatic final fight barely needing a shower and change of clothes. Jim has to keep the books exciting.

[morriswalters]

He could have just froze her into a block of ice, and shattered her.  He's done it before.  What next level magic would you want to see him use?  He can vaporize someone with fire, freeze them solid with ice, can send them flying with wind.

To the best of my recollection he's never killed anything remotely human with magic, up until Battle Ground. He ended the fight on Demonreach in the best way possible possible.  Killing Lara, given that Mab is trying to set up an alliance, would have been counter productive. The idea was to end it with no violence.

[Mira]

Still I do see one area where Harry is behind other wizards his age. He is simply not as skilled at reducing the energy costs of magic. Some of that may be just innate talent  and some may just be learning over time. His exceptional strength(and lately the mantle) might be working against him here. Plus, as Eb pointed out in their duel, he's learning that a full power punch may not always be the best strategy.

I think "pacing" is something that comes with maturity.   What Eb points out to him is an example of that, also something Justin most likely never taught during Harry's apprenticeship. 

well considering anyone who knows a little about sanctum invocations can do what he did.... Teleport behind her and knock her out? Simple, easy, effective AND actually involving advanced magic unlike most everything that's been argued for Harry not being behind the curve when showcasing that was likely entirely intentional on Jim's part. Harry's fallen behind and multiple allusions were made to that effect especially around the time of Carlos and Marcones respective scenes.

So far we've seen only Marcone/Namshiel do that, and Namshiel is a fallen angel and who knows, may have even invented it.  Harry was interested, says he was but was forbidden access to the books on it in the Council Library.  He also says that it is mainly a technique that takes years to learn, from forty to as many as a hundred years, and only by the best wizards.  I think though that there is a reason Jim outlined all of that, Harry is going to be working on that very skill for the next couple of books.

[groinkick]

well considering anyone who knows a little about sanctum invocations can do what he did.... Teleport behind her and knock her out? Simple, easy, effective AND actually involving advanced magic unlike most everything that's been argued for Harry not being behind the curve when showcasing that was likely entirely intentional on Jim's part. Harry's fallen behind and multiple allusions were made to that effect especially around the time of Carlos and Marcones respective scenes.

Who besides Drakul, and someone with a Coin actually use teleportation?  I think that using it is beyond advanced magic.  Is it possible with planning, and preparation?  Probably but in the heat of combat?  Doubtful.  Eb is  a seriously talented wizard and didn't display it in PT, or BG when it would have helped him a lot.