So does Odin...

[didymos]

...have a soul?  Per WoJ, he has Soulfire, and the fuel for that is your soul, so it seems like he must. Which raises the question: if so, do gods in general have souls, or is Odin special?

[Yuillegan]

Bob said Angels have nothing but soul...Gods are basically the same sort of beings according to Jim. Energy beings he called them.

[Mira]

...have a soul?  Per WoJ, he has Soulfire, and the fuel for that is your soul, so it seems like he must. Which raises the question: if so, do gods in general have souls, or is Odin special?

I doubt it, unlike Mab, I don't think he was ever human, if he was it was so long ago it no longer exists.

Bob said Angels have nothing but soul...Gods are basically the same sort of beings according to Jim. Energy beings he called them.

Yes, he did, but I don't think having a soul and being nothing but soul are the same thing.. Related maybe, but not the same, lets not forget that this really isn't an area of Bob's expertise.  Harry himself said that back in Cold Days when he used soul fire to break the bonds Mother Winter put on him.

[didymos]

I doubt it, unlike Mab, I don't think he was ever human, if he was it was so long ago it no longer exists.

Then how does he use Soulfire? Because he does.

[groinkick]

I doubt it, unlike Mab, I don't think he was ever human, if he was it was so long ago it no longer exists.

I suspect it does exist.  When he acts as Vanderung, he appears to be a mortal wizard. 

[Mira]

I suspect it does exist.  When he acts as Vanderung, he appears to be a mortal wizard.

Appears doesn't mean that he is...

[groinkick]

Appears doesn't mean that he is...

He is limited as a mortal....  He doesn't wield the power of a god when in that form, or doesn't appear to.

[Con]

River Shoulders says he fought as a mortal as Beowulf and we know he's mortal now just longevity thanks to kringle mantlw
I doubt it, unlike Mab, I don't think he was ever human, if he was it was so long ago it no longer exists.
Yes, he did, but I don't think having a soul and being nothing but soul are the same thing.. Related maybe, but not the same, lets not forget that this really isn't an area of Bob's expertise.  Harry himself said that back in Cold Days when he used soul fire to break the bonds Mother Winter put on him.

rendel

[Yuillegan]

I doubt it, unlike Mab, I don't think he was ever human, if he was it was so long ago it no longer exists.

Yes, he did, but I don't think having a soul and being nothing but soul are the same thing.. Related maybe, but not the same, lets not forget that this really isn't an area of Bob's expertise.  Harry himself said that back in Cold Days when he used soul fire to break the bonds Mother Winter put on him.

I doubt he Vadderung began as a mortal, but he has become mortal before. Even TWG did. It's a complicated question.

Uriel said that mortal's ARE a soul, they HAVE a body. So it's clearly not just one thing. The body clearly shapes the experience of the soul...yet the soul is the more important part. Harry is often wrong about some of these big things (like his conversation with Uriel)...his exposition in that moment fight Mother Winter's will might be an incomplete epiphany.

Having nothing but soul is different clearly from having a mortal body and a soul...but clearly there are beings like Bob that are not soul as well, and physical creatures like ants that are bodies without souls (maybe..?) and beings like Red Court vampires that seemingly don't have souls. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out Vadderung as having or being made of soul. It's just energy after all and gods are energy beings.

Then how does he use Soulfire? Because he does.

Angels use Soulfire. Being mortal isn't a requirement. In fact it seems to be highly unusual given the reactions of divine beings.

[didymos]

Angels use Soulfire. Being mortal isn't a requirement. In fact it seems to be highly unusual given the reactions of divine beings.

We're talking about having a soul, as that's the fuel for Soulfire, not being mortal.  Angels are souls:

“It’s how angels do all of their stuff. Though admittedly, they’ve got a lot more in the way of soul to draw upon than you do.”

“I thought angels didn’t have souls,” I said.

 “Like I said, people get all excited and twitchy when that word gets used,” Bob said. “Angels don’t have anything else.”

Butcher, Jim. Small Favor (The Dresden Files, Book 10) (p. 418). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[Snark Knight]

I doubt he Vadderung began as a mortal, but he has become mortal before.

From stringing together a couple of WOJ's about Vadderung, he seems to have chosen to become a lot more mortal-ish in order to stay in the game when the rest of the old gods were required to step to the side. He even would have been subject to dying of old age if he hadn't picked up the Kringle mantle as well, which is pretty mortal indeed by the standards of the big entities.

[Yuillegan]

From stringing together a couple of WOJ's about Vadderung, he seems to have chosen to become a lot more mortal-ish in order to stay in the game when the rest of the old gods were required to step to the side. He even would have been subject to dying of old age if he hadn't picked up the Kringle mantle as well, which is pretty mortal indeed by the standards of the big entities.

Indeed. He is more like nigh-immortal. He has sacrificed some of his invulnerability for flexibility. A decent trade depending on who you ask...like Mab. It's all a gradient anyway. Even immortals are not eternal...sufficient magical might (perhaps of the right origins) seems to be enough, and there are times and places where immortals are more mortal than normal. As far as we have seen, nothing is actually eternal at all. I mean, Thomas is nigh-immortal too but I suspect that he must feed in order for that to work. I agree he is somewhat mortal for the purposes of being killable with more normal means, and perhaps cannot merely reform after destruction of his self, and perhaps too it means he doesn't have the whole "fixed point" thing.

We're talking about having a soul, as that's the fuel for Soulfire, not being mortal.  Angels are souls:

You said

Posted by: didymos
« on: March 03, 2021, 04:15:33 PM »Insert Quote
Quote from: Mira on March 03, 2021, 01:43:56 PM
"I doubt it, unlike Mab, I don't think he was ever human, if he was it was so long ago it no longer exists."

Then how does he use Soulfire? Because he does.

You're answer seem to be to the point that Mira is making i.e. that Vadderung isn't human/mortal. To which you respond as above, implying (I believe) that you need to be mortal to use soulfire which is of course isn't true, as the quote from Small Favor proves. But perhaps I misunderstand you?

[didymos]

You're answer seem to be to the point that Mira is making i.e. that Vadderung isn't human/mortal. To which you respond as above, implying (I believe) that you need to be mortal to use soulfire which is of course isn't true, as the quote from Small Favor proves. But perhaps I misunderstand you?

I was just responding to the conclusion that he doesn't have a soul. I wasn't even paying attention to the whole "used to be mortal" thing.

[Yuillegan]

I was just responding to the conclusion that he doesn't have a soul. I wasn't even paying attention to the whole "used to be mortal" thing.

Ah I see. Just a miscommunication between us then. I think we then both agree that Vadderung must have something like a soul regardless on whether he is or has been mortal. The salient point is that a being must have a soul (of sorts) in order to wield Soulfire.