Author Topic: The Outer Night and 13  (Read 4462 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
The Outer Night and 13
« on: February 15, 2021, 02:34:42 AM »
So in Peace Talks, Harry banishes the Cornerhounds calling them "Servants of the Outer Night". Where have we heard part of that phrase before? Oh yes, the Lords of the Outer Night.

There are 13 Cornerhounds. Eb calls them "the whole pack". He also explains they are not actually 13 separate beings, but the one entity. Harry explains this as the entity is not actually in the mortal world, it creates a drone or avatar (or several) in which so visit the mortal world while safe in it's home reality.

Interestingly, there are also 13 Lords of the Outer Night. However, the Red King "Kukulcan" is an anomaly. If the Lords of the Outer Night were like the Cornerhounds, wouldn't they be limited to 13 as well? And the Red Court leave skeletons, not ectoplasm (except for their flesh masks I believe). Which would suggest they are more "real".

My theory is that the original Entity is Kukulcan, the Red King. He possesses a mortal human, perhaps even a starborn, perhaps not. But the being is so big that it cannot be contained in a little human shell. This is also part of why the vampires look human much of the time, likely the other reason is to blend in. When the Entity spreads the majority of it's power out amongst it's "children" they become the 13. Not a gestalt being as such, separate minds. Almost a combination of the original entity plus the mortal it inhabits. Yet intrinsically linked to the greater entity. The downside of course of being in the mortal world is it makes them more mortal...whereas a "drone" while destructible represents no great loss to the Entity as it is more like a tool than anything else. Perhaps it is the combination of mortal and immortal, sprit being and physical, that allows it to act. It might not be able to act anywhere near as much without a mortal, physical body. It's not like Harry or anyone else considered ever banishing the Lords of the Outer Night.

I suspect this is the case with the other Vampire Courts, and is what links them. It's also why they must feed on mortal blood/life. They have none of their own and cannot produce it, and therefore cannot maintain that level of being "real" without it. '

Perhaps Drakul is similar to Kukulcan, but undoubtedly worse. Curious he doesn't have 13 servants (although perhaps he used to - Jim said he always liked an elite team rather than a full Court). The extension of the power into a Court seems to weaken them in some way. I think it is in Changes that they discuss how the power of the blood of the Red Court is now spread amongst too many beings. In trying to grow larger there is less for all to take perhaps. Drakul seemed to want to avoid it, and when his son Dracula expanded things to a full blown Court, that's when the Black Court was nearly destroyed. Perhaps the trade off is between the weight of numbers versus individual strength. I imagine the White Court and Jade Court will be rather similar, and perhaps had similar beings as their progenitors (although likely they were weaker, I imagine it goes Black, Red, Jade, White in terms of strength).

But the salient point is there is a clear link between the Outsiders and the Red Court, and quite a lot of less obvious links between the other Courts and the Outsiders. Curious also that the Red Court Elders are styled "Lords" of the Outer Night. I never felt them on the scale of any of the most powerful beings of the Outside.

Also, I would be willing to bet that Nemesis (He Who Walks Beside) can only possess 13 beings at once. Also, I think the Walkers all must have possessed a mortal. He Who Walks Behind possessed Madge's body in White Night. I never saw anything about any of the Walkers turning into ectoplasm after death. They leave corpses of a sort. Which must mean they have a mortal, physical shell (even if the being itself is immortal). Nemesis always seems to be in a real body, rather than a created one - in fact so far we haven't seen him in his "true" form like his counterparts.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2021, 03:37:58 AM »
The number 13 is big in magic.  Doesn't Mac have 13 tables and stuff in his place to break up magic?  Also I think the most wizards that can be used for a spell is 13.  Also the 13th card in a tarot deck is the death card.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 03:40:52 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2021, 05:10:04 AM »
Yep thirteen is a very well worn number in the DF.. thirteen practitioners can unite on a spell, twelve grey council showed up to help Harry is in changes.. with Harry being the 13th member, ect. I think 13 is somehow the entropic number..
Although, I thought there were 12 lords of outer night, kulcan was 13#?

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2021, 05:11:58 AM »
Yep thirteen is a very well worn number in the DF.. thirteen practitioners can unite on a spell, twelve grey council showed up to help Harry is in changes.. with Harry being the 13th member, ect. I think 13 is somehow the entropic number..
Although, I thought there were 12 lords of outer night, kulcan was 13#?

perhaps #13 was hidden from view?  A mystery....
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2021, 07:31:42 AM »
I think it is in Changes that they discuss how the power of the blood of the Red Court is now spread amongst too many beings.
I thought that was said about Odin by Odin, but you're right. He does say "I am ... not what I was. My children are scattered around the world. Most of them have forgotten our purpose." That's probably what I was remembering. I think it might be a hint that he's in the same boat as the LotON. He goes on to talk about the "beings such as" himself. He says "they are venerated by only a handful, the power of their blood spread out among thousands of offspring."

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2021, 12:01:21 PM »
The number 13 is big in magic.  Doesn't Mac have 13 tables and stuff in his place to break up magic?  Also I think the most wizards that can be used for a spell is 13.  Also the 13th card in a tarot deck is the death card.
It is, but it has a particular relationship to the Outsiders beyond regular meanings.

\\
Yep thirteen is a very well worn number in the DF.. thirteen practitioners can unite on a spell, twelve grey council showed up to help Harry is in changes.. with Harry being the 13th member, ect. I think 13 is somehow the entropic number..
Although, I thought there were 12 lords of outer night, kulcan was 13#?
Nope, specifically Arianna refers to the Thirteen (intentionally capitalized) when talking about how one of them will ascend to Kukulcan. Harry also noticed thirteen tall figures on the level just below the temple, and the light is on in the temple above them (where the Red King is currently sacrificing the victims and preparing for Maggie).

I thought that was said about Odin by Odin, but you're right. He does say "I am ... not what I was. My children are scattered around the world. Most of them have forgotten our purpose." That's probably what I was remembering. I think it might be a hint that he's in the same boat as the LotON. He goes on to talk about the "beings such as" himself. He says "they are venerated by only a handful, the power of their blood spread out among thousands of offspring."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Odin is referring to the Lords of the Outer Night, rather than himself or other gods. Yeah, the bit about how his own "children" are scattered hints it's part of what has undone his power, along with the lack of worship and choosing to stay in the mortal world. I think it's all about what it costs to operate in the mortal plane. I also think that belief/worship is what the beings "feed" on and it recharges them. They seem to spread this power around - Vadderung in his children but also his familiars (H & M, Sleipnir), Mab with her Unicorn, perhaps even the Mothers with their Queens and other pieces.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2021, 11:37:48 PM »
I also think that belief/worship is what the beings "feed" on and it recharges them.
Ethnui said something that I found interesting. She said something to Odin about how they needed mortals fear, not love. I took this to mean that gods/immortals get their power, some or all of it, from the emotions humans direct towards them. Maybe that they have to choose a specific emotion to feed off of. A lot like the White Court.

It implies a lot about Odin that he chose either to feed off of love or to nurture such feelings in mortals.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2021, 01:36:44 AM »
Ethnui said something that I found interesting. She said something to Odin about how they needed mortals fear, not love. I took this to mean that gods/immortals get their power, some or all of it, from the emotions humans direct towards them. Maybe that they have to choose a specific emotion to feed off of. A lot like the White Court.

It implies a lot about Odin that he chose either to feed off of love or to nurture such feelings in mortals.
Interesting that you bring up the White Court. It's almost the same thing yet clearly far more widespread and non-lethal. They feed off the psychic energy of humans but not taking as much to kill them or that they even notice. There's a level of economics of scale here perhaps. This reminded me that Jim is a Warhammer Fantasy fan, in that world the Gods feed off and are possibly (in certain cases) created by the psychic thoughts of mortals. The Blood God of Chaos, Khorne feeds from murder and violence but also from martial honour. There is a saying in that world "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does". Perhaps the Gods of the Dresdenverse are the same.

And I agree, it is interesting that Odin realised love was better. Clearly he didn't always think so of course - he was associated with War, Death, Magic, Prophecy and Victory among other things. Perhaps it's that Gods need worship, but inspiring it through love rather than fear gives off longer lasting energy (or something).
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline K.L.O.E.

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 07:13:02 PM »
Interesting that you bring up the White Court. It's almost the same thing yet clearly far more widespread and non-lethal. They feed off the psychic energy of humans but not taking as much to kill them or that they even notice. There's a level of economics of scale here perhaps. This reminded me that Jim is a Warhammer Fantasy fan, in that world the Gods feed off and are possibly (in certain cases) created by the psychic thoughts of mortals. The Blood God of Chaos, Khorne feeds from murder and violence but also from martial honour. There is a saying in that world "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does". Perhaps the Gods of the Dresdenverse are the same.

And I agree, it is interesting that Odin realised love was better. Clearly he didn't always think so of course - he was associated with War, Death, Magic, Prophecy and Victory among other things. Perhaps it's that Gods need worship, but inspiring it through love rather than fear gives off longer lasting energy (or something).
Ethnui said something that I found interesting. She said something to Odin about how they needed mortals fear, not love. I took this to mean that gods/immortals get their power, some or all of it, from the emotions humans direct towards them. Maybe that they have to choose a specific emotion to feed off of. A lot like the White Court.

It implies a lot about Odin that he chose either to feed off of love or to nurture such feelings in mortals.


Interesting that you bring up the White Court. It's almost the same thing yet clearly far more widespread and non-lethal. They feed off the psychic energy of humans but not taking as much to kill them or that they even notice. There's a level of economics of scale here perhaps. This reminded me that Jim is a Warhammer Fantasy fan, in that world the Gods feed off and are possibly (in certain cases) created by the psychic thoughts of mortals. The Blood God of Chaos, Khorne feeds from murder and violence but also from martial honour. There is a saying in that world "Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does". Perhaps the Gods of the Dresdenverse are the same.

And I agree, it is interesting that Odin realised love was better. Clearly he didn't always think so of course - he was associated with War, Death, Magic, Prophecy and Victory among other things. Perhaps it's that Gods need worship, but inspiring it through love rather than fear gives off longer lasting energy (or something).

I almost started a thread just about that quote today till I found this thread.

What if there is something related to the attachment of love compared to fear? Fear is pervasive and unrestrained mentally while Love requires an attachment. If someone loves to Fight that powers Odin, if they are afraid of the fight it powers the Titans?
Kyle Lowry
Everything

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 08:52:51 PM »
They need to be known. Their stories need to be known. Have a place in human memory. The oblivion war is based on that and so is Mab’s involvement in the Grimm brothers and their book. Worship is one form of that, fear is another one. Fear and worship are not necessarily that different anyway.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2021, 02:40:27 AM »
They need to be known. Their stories need to be known. Have a place in human memory. The oblivion war is based on that and so is Mab’s involvement in the Grimm brothers and their book. Worship is one form of that, fear is another one. Fear and worship are not necessarily that different anyway.
Worship isn't the opposite of fear. People have long worshipped out of fear as much as they have out of love. It's arguably older. Not just gods either. You only have to look at more recent history to see that. People always tend to rise up if oppressed for too long. Eventually they overcome the fear, which isn't to say they are not scared or fearful but they become brave (it's basically the definition of it). Just look at others. I completely disagreed with Harry's assessment of Butters, from a psychological point of view. Butter's eventually overcame his fear in Dead Beat and far more so later in the series. Courage is acting even while scared. If you are not scared at all by anything, you're probably too desensitized or potentially a sociopath/psychopath (depending on certain factors). The other possibility is you're so strong and sure of that strength that you don't feel threatened. When it's logical, it's normal. When it's illogical, it's delusional. Butter's isn't a coward even if he was earlier. Rudolph was a coward. Bradley wasn't. You get the idea.

I get what you're saying about the Oblivion War. Clearly Ethniu believes that having the mortals pray to her out of fear of her wrath is better than out of love. Perhaps that market is saturated. I mean, if Ethniu came out and started performing miracles all over the place naturally people would worship her. She could create her own food just as easily. So the question is...why not?
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2021, 04:42:11 AM »
Worship isn't the opposite of fear. People have long worshipped out of fear as much as they have out of love. It's arguably older. Not just gods either. You only have to look at more recent history to see that. People always tend to rise up if oppressed for too long.
Not really. People can be oppressed for ages. It is when they have tasted freedoms and people take it away from them that they rise up. It is the fear of loosing it.
Quote
Eventually they overcome the fear, which isn't to say they are not scared or fearful but they become brave (it's basically the definition of it). Just look at others. I completely disagreed with Harry's assessment of Butters, from a psychological point of view. Butter's eventually overcame his fear in Dead Beat and far more so later in the series. Courage is acting even while scared. If you are not scared at all by anything, you're probably too desensitized or potentially a sociopath/psychopath (depending on certain factors). The other possibility is you're so strong and sure of that strength that you don't feel threatened. When it's logical, it's normal. When it's illogical, it's delusional. Butter's isn't a coward even if he was earlier. Rudolph was a coward. Bradley wasn't. You get the idea.

I get what you're saying about the Oblivion War. Clearly Ethniu believes that having the mortals pray to her out of fear of her wrath is better than out of love. Perhaps that market is saturated. I mean, if Ethniu came out and started performing miracles all over the place naturally people would worship her. She could create her own food just as easily. So the question is...why not?
It is probably more in her nature and it might also be the eye though that could be a chicken egg thing. You might need a certain character to wield such a thing made of hate.

But even that love can be born out of fear. You have to love him one else...
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 05:38:12 AM »
Not really. People can be oppressed for ages. It is when they have tasted freedoms and people take it away from them that they rise up. It is the fear of loosing it.
So by your definition, no one has ever worshipped anyone out of fear? That's a pretty bold claim. How do you think religions took over countries where established religions already existed? The preachers of the invading country went in and told the people they were invading that their gods were false and burned their idols and places of worship, often replacing them with their own temples and symbols. If the invaded peoples resisted they were killed, tortured or their families and friends were until they submitted. The history of invasion is dark and full of fear. Not to mention places in the ancient world where those who spoke out were killed or sacrificed. Think of the Mayans - human sacrifice is pretty good way of scaring people into believing things (or at least scaring them into acting like they do). But the Mayans didn't so much as rise up as get conquered by the next group, who in turn were conquered.

It is probably more in her nature and it might also be the eye though that could be a chicken egg thing. You might need a certain character to wield such a thing made of hate.

But even that love can be born out of fear. You have to love him one else...
Perhaps she started out dark. But things are rarely that black and white. Even Lucifer wasn't always evil. I agree though that you probably couldn't wield the Eye unless you truly hate something, probably the thing you want to destroy.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 08:19:59 AM »
So by your definition, no one has ever worshipped anyone out of fear?
Sure, they do it all the time. I was talking about resisting. Rebellion. The whole concept of hell is based on fear and making people worship out of fear.
Quote
That's a pretty bold claim. How do you think religions took over countries where established religions already existed?
War. And people resisted exactly because of what I said. They had freedom and people took it away from them.

Quote
The preachers of the invading country went in and told the people they were invading that their gods were false and burned their idols and places of worship, often replacing them with their own temples and symbols. If the invaded peoples resisted they were killed, tortured or their families and friends were until they submitted.
Exactly. They were loosing the freedom they were used to. That is why they fought. The great Saxon and Prussian uprisings and the Baltic crusades for example that took centuries. But people can get used to oppression, that is why it can it become dangerous for the oppressor to give them a little bit of freedom and take it away later. The Soviet empire fell because of glasnost, not because of Stalin.
Quote
The history of invasion is dark and full of fear. Not to mention places in the ancient world where those who spoke out were killed or sacrificed. Think of the Mayans - human sacrifice is pretty good way of scaring people into believing things (or at least scaring them into acting like they do). But the Mayans didn't so much as rise up as get conquered by the next group, who in turn were conquered.
The key word here is invasion. The bringing of new oppression by someone else. That is often doubly resisted. But eating each other was part of war. They all did it.
Quote
Perhaps she started out dark. But things are rarely that black and white. Even Lucifer wasn't always evil. I agree though that you probably couldn't wield the Eye unless you truly hate something, probably the thing you want to destroy.

I did not claim people did not worship out of fear, they did all the time. But to object to it they have to be shown that things can be different. That freedom is possible. And the best method for that is pointing out that they had it for a long time before the oppressor came in. People used to oppression do not rebel that often especially if everything they hear tells them that life is so everywhere and god is on the side of the oppressors and that the slightest thought against your oppressor is a thought against god and leads to hell. Oppressive societies went on for ages that way even when the oppression became worse and worse. Just oppression is not enough to incite rebellion.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: The Outer Night and 13
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2021, 05:48:00 PM »
They need to be known. Their stories need to be known. Have a place in human memory. The oblivion war is based on that and so is Mab’s involvement in the Grimm brothers and their book. Worship is one form of that, fear is another one. Fear and worship are not necessarily that different anyway.
They need to be known to be able to exist in our world. Ethnui was more powerful than Odin (discounting softer power like allies and being smarter). This suggests that being known isn't what gives them power. If it was, Odin would be more powerful than Ethniu. I'm pretty sure Odin is much more widely known than Ethnui. What do they need to be powerful in our world?