Why didn't Drakul kill.....

[groinkick]

Much as this WoJ is clear, the actual canonical text seems to say that it's no longer valid. Ferrovax is very clearly on a different level than Drakul, and Drakul doesn't seem much stronger than a Lord of Outer Night or two.

Isn't there a microfiction or something where Harry says Drakul is more powerful than all the Lords of Outer night combined?  I thought I read that on the forum in the last 2 weeks.

Drakul made one short appearance, and Mavra herself said he was enjoying himself.  So he clearly wasn't even trying.  I know he has the power, I'm just wondering his reason for allowing them to live.

[Arjan]

From what I understood from woj the black court vampires who survived the stoker apocalypse are the careful ones. They do not take unnecessary risks. They are very strong but they also have very specific weaknesses and you never know especially with wizards or people like Mab or Vadderung.

[Mira]

Isn't there a microfiction or something where Harry says Drakul is more powerful than all the Lords of Outer night combined?  I thought I read that on the forum in the last 2 weeks.

Drakul made one short appearance, and Mavra herself said he was enjoying himself.  So he clearly wasn't even trying.  I know he has the power, I'm just wondering his reason for allowing them to live.

Like I said, Marva orchestrated the perfect set up, it was a win,win for Team Black Court.  I don't think he really was allowing them to live, but Mavra sort of went into a panic when it began to rain iron anvils, so they just left.

[groinkick]

Like I said, Marva orchestrated the perfect set up, it was a win,win for Team Black Court.  I don't think he really was allowing them to live, but Mavra sort of went into a panic when it began to rain iron anvils, so they just left.

I am really just forming opinions of course but upon thinking more I think Drakul may have seen this as a sparring match.  He killed some of the younger wizards, but that's because he held no respect for them.

I believe he was willing to fight LTW, and River Shoulders more or less on even terms..  He wanted to spar them purely on skill, and skill alone.  So he'd have been holding back his power on purpose because it would have been uneven, and therefor not a challenge, or fun.  He basically tied a hand behind his back and fought them that way.  I think this makes sense for two reasons. 1. It means WOJ are still accurate, and 2.  Mavra saying he was enjoying himself jives with a guy playing around with a couple of skillful opponents.

[Bad Alias]

It's kind of annoying for half of them since you have to copypaste the link to a new tab and remove the /bb/ along with swapping the jimbutcher for paranet since otherwise you just get booted to the front page of jim-butcher.com

There's also this source for finding the older stuff. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/home/

Isn't there a microfiction or something where Harry says Drakul is more powerful than all the Lords of Outer night combined?  I thought I read that on the forum in the last 2 weeks.

My understanding is it's from BG.

[b4utoo]

Well I'm not sold on him holding back. I think he is like Wizard and he can fight for what he plans for. Just like Harry. I think if he plan to kill them he would plan it out. And they live as long as they do because they're smart. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should because you might leave yourself open for counter-attack. So he got to fight him the way he did to ensure he wasn't defeated and complete his purpose.

I appreciate you posting the info. Very kind. I did try looking for it but I guess my searching skills are not all that great. Your response was a lot better than some other couch Commandos comments who are safe behind the computer. And my comments were just to be flippant. Even though I'm more sarcastic by Nature.

[b4utoo]

Is Drakul the original? Is he not dead walking? Would necromancy work on him? Or just his "offspring"? And Ebenezer refers to him as the Beast. So this is outer appearance real? Thoughts?

[The_Sibelis]

Yes, recent Woj implies he's not only the original but a few other monsters throughout history, being older than our current legends about him. Actually found a really interesting theory on Drakul the other day,
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/8cuspf/dracula_the_once_and_future_count_speculation/
Gonna reread it a few times to see if it fits anything here

[Yuillegan]

That's the thing.  By comparison they are not.  Raw horsepower (as Jim said) it would take every wizard on the planet to stand up to Mab while Drakul can by himself.  So as powerful as LTW is, he's nothing, nothing in comparison to Drakul.

The only thing I could come up with is that Drakul is less effective against some forms of magic, and LTW is good enough to exploit it.  Just as River shoulders was able to stop him from teleporting.

Quite possibly, perhaps Drakul's weaknesses were being exploited. But in saying that...he seemed like he was enjoying himself. Maybe he was being a distraction for something else that was happening that we have yet to see. Or perhaps he doesn't turn wizards and using them for the stars and stones is some other goal. Perhaps part of a ritual for gaining power. I mean, likely Mavra and possibly Drakul have the Word of Kemmler (although I really hope it doesn't end up with Mavra as the big bad betraying her Master...that is so over used and also wouldn't fit with her having no real will).     

My understanding is it's from BG.

                             
Indeed. It is exposition on Harry's part but likely enough.

Like I said, Marva orchestrated the perfect set up, it was a win,win for Team Black Court.  I don't think he really was allowing them to live, but Mavra sort of went into a panic when it began to rain iron anvils, so they just left.

Just the one anvil from memory. But a well timed one! Not sure that Mavra panicked and left either. She just disappears presumably with the remaining Elders and the bodies of Yoshimo and Wild Bill. I don't think she was afraid of Dresden. More likely there was an unspoken signal and Drakul got his people to leave. They had what they came for.

Well I'm not sold on him holding back. I think he is like Wizard and he can fight for what he plans for. Just like Harry. I think if he plan to kill them he would plan it out. And they live as long as they do because they're smart. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should because you might leave yourself open for counter-attack. So he got to fight him the way he did to ensure he wasn't defeated and complete his purpose.

I appreciate you posting the info. Very kind. I did try looking for it but I guess my searching skills are not all that great. Your response was a lot better than some other couch Commandos comments who are safe behind the computer. And my comments were just to be flippant. Even though I'm more sarcastic by Nature.

Which part are you not sold on? And I think any of the supernatural threats can fight what they plan for. When it comes to mortal wizards, they are often at their most dangerous when prepared and their least when caught off guard. Vampires don't seem to have that issue as they often rely (if not over-rely) on their physical power and nasty abilities. Mavra has shown she can be very dangerous if prepared, far more so than normal. So I don't think it follows that if Drakul had planned to kill he would have. His goal was stated to be the capture of wizard talents, and he got at least 2 possibly 3. Whether they died or not may not be an issue for a necromancer. Beyond that, I think he is on a schedule like all the big players are. He doesn't waste time with nobodies. But the fact of it is the scene Jim wrote with Drakul just wasn't the best. Perhaps Drakul was too built up, perhaps Jim didn't analyse the scene as much as he could have, perhaps Jim got over it between multiple rewrites and edits. In any case, hopefully we will get better scenes in future.

Fair enough if you're comments were meant to be flippant, as I said sarcasm often doesn't translate well over the internet as writing is a poor medium for such things. Probably just worth being a bit more careful in future. I don't know if I am one of these "couch commandos" you are referring to but I don't think it was particularly risky to call out what I perceived to be poor behaviour. I hope you don't threaten people who call you out or upset you though. That would be crap behaviour. I wasn't having a go at your researching skill, nor was Sibelis. Just the lack of effort came across combined with your admittedly unclear jokes. It's fine to critique people's arguments when they haven't provided evidence or used much logic, but saying another person hasn't got proof when you can't be bothered to look yourself for something quite easy to find is just bait. Sibelis was friendly and told you where to look and you made a joke out of it. Whether you intended to look or not doesn't matter, as you made it seem like you didn't. If you don't wish to be misunderstood, probably best to be clearer in future.

Is Drakul the original? Is he not dead walking? Would necromancy work on him? Or just his "offspring"? And Ebenezer refers to him as the Beast. So this is outer appearance real? Thoughts?

He seems to be the origin of the Black Court...but that doesn't mean he necessarily is the original Black Court Vampire. He has vampiric powers but no one seems to refer to him as a vampire either. It's impossible with so little information to know whether he is actually undead. He is stuck in the body of a mortal, so perhaps he "died" in a sense and came back. But the spiritual monster probably is immortal which wouldn't make him undead. So yeah, necromancy probably wouldn't be able to control him although it may effect him like any other non-undead being. And it has been said it would be possible to control the Black Court Vampires with necromancy (per Jim), Kemmler figured it out. Eb actually referred to Drakul as THE Creature.  Real is subjective, but I suspect the being residing in the mortal's body doesn't look much like Drakul at all. Especially if it is made of spiritual energy.

Yes, recent Woj implies he's not only the original but a few other monsters throughout history, being older than our current legends about him. Actually found a really interesting theory on Drakul the other day,
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/8cuspf/dracula_the_once_and_future_count_speculation/
Gonna reread it a few times to see if it fits anything here

Good theory in how it's set out but it sort of falls apart with the whole "expunged from history brother" bit as there is no other evidence of such a person. Beyond that, Drakul is FAR older than that as he has apparently been around since the dawn of man. I certainly could see an Arthurian connection though. Maybe Mordred is involved.

[The_Sibelis]

falls apart with the whole "expunged from history brother" bit as there is no other evidence of such a person.

very true, I'm looking twice though because I think the whole two brothers thing is a big enough archatype that it's part of the repeating story in the DF. Besides the obvious ones in history, I wonder about the connection between Dresden and his brother and TWC, and his brother Doubting Thomas, better known as the apostle Paul(? Iirc) which I started looking at because of Yeat's the second coming, which is supposed to be loosely based on the antichrist.
If one brother rises and the other falls then Arthur would have had a brother by my reconing.
Just playing with pieces of the puzzle to see where they might fit.

[Mira]

Quite possibly, perhaps Drakul's weaknesses were being exploited. But in saying that...he seemed like he was enjoying himself. Maybe he was being a distraction for something else that was happening that we have yet to see. Or perhaps he doesn't turn wizards and using them for the stars and stones is some other goal. Perhaps part of a ritual for gaining power. I mean, likely Mavra and possibly Drakul have the Word of Kemmler (although I really hope it doesn't end up with Mavra as the big bad betraying her Master...that is so over used and also wouldn't fit with her having no real will).     

 I believe that Mavra does have the Word of Kemmler, Harry gave it to her at the end of Dead Beat because she was going to black mail Murphy. He also warned her not to try to get to him though his mortal friends again, that he also had read the book and since he did raise Sue, understood it, and knew how to use it.

[g33k]

I believe that Mavra does have the Word of Kemmler, Harry gave it to her at the end of Dead Beat because she was going to black mail Murphy. He also warned her not to try to get to him though his mortal friends again, that he also had read the book and since he did raise Sue, understood it, and knew how to use it.

Note however that he relied upon Lasciel's Shadow (photographic memory) to read the book for him.

We don't know how much of that info he retains.  He almost-certainly no longer remembers Ghoul (iirc that's Sumerian) as he failed to recognize/understand it in the Deeps after Lash takes the psychic assault for him.  By inference, he no longer remembers Etruscan (Whamp formal tongue).

I suspect he can reanimate animals as zombies -- he did that magic himself (even if the Shadow tutored him); dunno about human zombies, it may be different-enough that he can't (not to mention that'd violate the Laws).

But all the other stuff he got from the Shadow?  I don't recall that we've seen any of it since the Deeps (only the music he played at the end of DB, and that just the once).  In particular, we don't know if he still knows any of the rest of the Word of Kemmler.  Per the text, Harry and the Shadow discussed it for "an hour or more," but that wouldn't be enough to convey the entirety of the book (I presume Harry didn't revisit the BigBadBook -- as taught by the Shadow of a Fallen Angel -- after that night).

Details of the Darkhallow, the generalities of how to use necromancy against BCV's, how to raise Sue, and the pain-relief practice.  That's the specifics that he himself consciously worked with in his own mind, and presumably therefore still knows.

We know from the not-speaking-Ghoul scene that SOME of the info is gone; we know from Harry using the pain-relief that stuff he actually practiced (as his own act of will) he still has.

I think for the rest of it, it will depend on what Jim wants or needs later in the series.  I suspect there will be some issues with Bonea, what she knows, how much of her mom is in her, etc.

And -- as I have WAG'ed before -- I think it's entirely possible (bordering on probable) that although "Lash" is gone, Lasciel's Shadow still lurks within Harry.
 

[Mira]

Note however that he relied upon Lasciel's Shadow (photographic memory) to read the book for him.

We don't know how much of that info he retains.  He almost-certainly no longer remembers Ghoul (iirc that's Sumerian) as he failed to recognize/understand it in the Deeps after Lash takes the psychic assault for him.  By inference, he no longer remembers Etruscan (Whamp formal tongue).

  You are talking about two different things here in my opinion.  Kemmler's book is a how to raise the dead book, Lasciel translated it for Harry, and he was able to raise Sue.  Since Harry is very good a learning magic, it is my belief that he will remember the magic required.  In the second case we are talking learning a language, something Harry admits to not being very good at, case in point, his Latin.  There are things we learn to do from books that have been translated from another language.  We learn the information very well though we may never be able to speak the original language the book was written in.  The reverse can also be true, good at learning the language but not so good at learning the subject being written about.

[g33k]

  You are talking about two different things here in my opinion...

This is a reasonable point.  But it doesn't speak to my key issue, which is that Harry still retains some of what he learned from Lash and/or the Shadow, but not all of it; and any given bit of knowledge may or may not still be available to Harry.

Jim may have this issue thoroughly worked-out, over in his writer's notes.  Or he may be winging it, with various "Learned from Lash" moments that he reserves the right to discover he needs, as the series evolves.

I don't think we, the readers, have enough info to discern the pattern definitively; nor if Jim has no pattern, and is just winging it.

[Mira]

This is a reasonable point.  But it doesn't speak to my key issue, which is that Harry still retains some of what he learned from Lash and/or the Shadow, but not all of it; and any given bit of knowledge may or may not still be available to Harry.

  I still think the chance is greater that he retained all of the Word.  It isn't like Harry didn't already have existing talent, powerful talent, and as a star born to boot, I think he does retain all of the Word.. And knows how to use it.  Consider this when Lash translated the Word for Harry, she wasn't dealing with a blank slate like she was when she translated Ghoul for him.  Harry would have already understood all of the concepts, most likely knew them already save for the forbidden bits.