Drakul a demon lord?

[groinkick]

This is not mine.  It was from someone on Reddit who did a lot of work, and a great job.  Good theory too! 

Posted byu/-EG-
The Archive
3 years ago
The Nature of Drakul.
Spoilers All
Arguably one of the more popular characters in the Dresdenverse, if only for the sheer fact that we know almost nothing about him. Or do we? People have tried to pin down what he is on this site, and others, over time. He's been theorized as a Dragon on par with Ferrovax, Lucifer himself and even an Outsider trapped in human form.

We can likely dismiss those ideas for a number of reasons. For one, there are only two Dragons, big D, left in the world:

I believe that you've mentioned that Dragons will be showing up later in the series. Supposedly we've just seen Mr. Ferro. Is he an indicator of what most Dragons are like, or was he an exceptional case

There were only three left and Michael killed one of them. So there's two more Dragons that are still on the face of the Earth and ...Ferrovax and Pyrovax. So... we'll see how that works out.

Next the idea of Lucifer, which doesn't jive well. Lucy is an Archangel, Fallen though he may be. And he is not hanging around on Earth:

Does Lucifer have his own coin? And will he make an appearance?

NO, are you kidding? He’s the [British accent] prince of $%&#@ darkness.[/British accent] no that doesn’t happen. No that was the deal, better to rule in hell than serve in heaven, and he does rule in hell, he’s not stuck in a coin. We will get to see him on stage later, that’s not until the big trilogy. He’s firkin Satan, you can’t get any worse.

As for the Outsider angle, I don't think that goes well with his ability to be on the Accords (which we will get to in a bit). Mab designed them and is the 'guardian of reality' as we know it. There is no logical way she is letting an Outsider, especially one that would be of this magnitude, to keep existing here...let alone be admitted onto her Accords. So what then is Drakul?

I've mentioned in comments over time what my view on the matter is but now it's time to flesh out fully why I think Drakul is something we've only heard mentioned off hand once or twice, but merits consideration. A Demon Lord.

"Loup-garou," Bob said. "Or that was the name Etienne the Enchanter used for them, before he got burned at the stake. The loup-garou are the major monsters, Harry. Someone has cursed them to become a wolflike demon, and usually at the full moon. That someone's got to be really powerful, too, like a major heavyweight sorcerer or a demon lord or one of the Faerie Queens. When the full moon comes, they transform into a monster, go on a killing spree, and slaughter everything they come across until the moon sets or the sun rises." -Fool Moon

"It was daylight there," Morgan said. "And the place was a fortress of the Merlin's wards. There was no way for the vampires to breach it from the Nevernever, and nothing short of a demon lord could have broken through them." His mouth twisted, and his eyes glittered with rage and hate. "They sent mortals against us. Against men and women lying injured, unconscious, helpless in their beds." The anger in his voice seemed to strangle him for a moment. -Dead Beat

Twice mentioned as a being that is capable of doing some serious damage if they put their mind to it. We also have another quote denoting the power of Demons when they get to that level:

"Useless," he said bitterly. "Raith is protected by something big. Maybe a big damned demon. Maybe even some old god. He can't be touched with magic." -Blood Rites

And as a person of power himself on par with Mab, as a Demon Lord is to a Queen, it makes a decent amount of sense.

Quote from: jimbutcher on March 04, 2009, 03:43:14 PM

Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:

o Titania--though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.

o The Mothers (who wouldn't)

o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.

o Drakul.

o Ferrovax.

o The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.

o The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.

o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).

o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.

All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.

There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened.

And indeed Drakul in one of the two times he is mentioned in text is powerful enough on his own to be a Freeholding Lord like Vadderung:

"Are there many of these lords?"

"Nope," I said. "I had Bob look into it. Maybe twenty on the whole planet. Two dragons, Drakul - the original, not baby Vlad - the Archive, the CEO of Monoc Securities, some kind of semi-immortal shapeshifter guru in the Ukraine, people like that. The Accords let them sign on as individuals. They have the same rights and obligations. Most people who consider the idea aren't willing to agree to be a good, traditional host for, let's say, a group of Black Court vampires, and don't want to get caught up as a mediator in a dispute between the major powers. They don't want to make themselves the targets of possible challenges, either, so not many of them even try it." -White Night

So we've establish that Drakul is a badass of a very high order. And indeed can make connections between the quality of power of a Demon Lord fitting the mold. But now let's make some stronger connections to Drakul as being a Demon.

Now Demon is a bit of a catchall term as Harry tells us:

Demons were bad enough, but they were at least something I was fairly familiar with. The reaches of the Nevernever, the world of spirit and magic that surrounds the mortal world, are filled with all kinds of beings. Most of them really don't give a damn about mortal affairs, and we are nothing but a remote and unimportant curiosity to them. When beings of the spirit world are interested in mortal business, it's for a good reason. The ones who like to eat us, hurt us, or generally terrify us are what wizards commonly refer to as demons, as a general term. They're bad enough. -Dead Beat

But we also know there are Demons in the more...biblical sense. Those tied to Hell (which we already know exists and who runs it), damnation and otherworldly suffering. And we've met one before in fact.

Will we see Chauncy again?

I don’t know; I haven’t thought about him in a good long time. He’s actually working in Hell. Yeah I don’t see how we can avoid seeing him in the second book of the big trilogy at the end. That’s the one that’s entitled Hell’s Bells.

This is important because of another character we know, who was in the employ of Drakul for a long time...

Ebenezar nodded. "He's older than I am. When I met him, I still had hair and he had been serving the creature for centuries."

"What creature?" I asked.

"The creature," Ebenezar said. "Another half mortal like Kincaid. Vlad Drakul."

I blinked. "Vlad Tepesh? Dracula?"

Ebenezar shook his head. "Dracula was the son of Drakul, and pretty pale and skinny by comparison. Went to the Black Court as a kind of teenage rebellion. The original creature is... well. Formidable. Dangerous. Cruel. And Kincaid was his right arm for centuries. He was known as the Hound of Hell. Or just the Hellhound." -Blood Rites

A fitting title for someone who was working for a Demon Lord perhaps? Kincaid himself also has a Demon quality about him:

For just a second I saw something standing there. Something enormous, malformed, something silent and merciless and deadly. It had to crouch to keep from brushing the ceiling with the horns curling away from its head, and batlike wings spread from its shoulders to fall around it and behind it, to drag along the floor, and I thought I saw some kind of hideous double image lurking behind it like the corpse-specter of Death himself.

Then the second was past, I pushed my Sight away, and Kincaid stood frowning down at me. "I said, are you all right?" -Blood Rites

Which makes sense that one dangerous Demon would be in the employ of another, older, stronger one. Kindred spirits and all that. The other reason the Demon angle seems like a strong connection is because of what we found out at the last AMA, giving us some more clarification as to what Dracula 'going over to the Black Court' really meant:

And also what is Drakul a scion of?

Drakul wasn't a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father's approval.

It didn't work out so well.

Black Court Vampires as we know are the 'strongest' of the three major courts. Which is certainly befitting a group that can possibly trace their lineage back to a Demon Lord of this caliber. From that same AMA we have another tidbit about the nature of the Blampire:

Black Court Vamps are a different story. They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don't really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don't have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they're basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.

Which to my mind fits the connection to being Demons all the more. The Black Court has a number of weaknesses that also twig to defenses one would also use on a Demon in the biblical sense. Sunlight. Holy Water. Religious Icons. And like Demons, they share an inability to get into your home:

"She came in without an invitation," I said.

"I thought vampires couldn't do that."

"The Reds ca—That is, they couldn't without being half-paralyzed. The Black Court vampires can't cross a threshold, period. The Whites can, but it cripples their abilities, makes it very difficult to draw on their Hunger for strength and speed." -Ghost Story

Demons of course cannot pass a threshold either. Unworldly. Evil. Dark. We're seeing a number of parallels between what a Demon would be considered even in real life.

Now comes the WAG bit on my part as to where I think Drakul fits into the whole hierarchy and why he is what he is. I think Drakul is a Demon Lord but not just a 'normal' one. I think he has direct ties to Hell, as a major player there. We see some hints to that, in my mind, during the fight in the Shedd aquarium.

He spread his hands. "A talk, Dresden. Five minutes. I assure you, if I wished to do you harm, even the Hellhound's reputation"-he paused deliberately to glance at Kincaid with naked contempt in his gaze-"would not make me hesitate for an instant. I would have killed you already."

Kincaid gave Nicodemus a chill little smile, and the air boiled with potential violence.

"But Magog has a point, Mother. Scent tracking has been useless." She held up a small pink sock. "Bits of clothing with her scent on them have been scattered everywhere."

"That's the Hellhound's work," Magog spat, bright green eyes glowing brightly over dull, animalistic brown ones. "He's fought us before." -Small Favor

Kincaid and the Denarians have a history. What that is we do not as of yet know, but Drakul shares something in common with the Fallen. Entrapment.

Partial WOJ:

Well. Not quite freely, but MORE freely, certainly. The Fallen bound in the coins are the freaking elite of Hell--everyone the big D didn't want trying to stab him in the back, basically. If they were suddenly freed it would do all kinds of horrible things to about a million balances of power, with repercussions that would last for centuries.

Further reiterated here:

Q: Difference between the Fallen and other creatures from Hell?

A: Fallen are like corporate – they’ve got the backing of an organization.

That first WOJ has lead to speculation for some time that Lucifer himself may have had a hand in putting the Fallen in their coins, specifically so he would not have to worry about them trying to usurp his power in Hell. And if we can reasonably believe that to be the case, it would not be beyond possibility that he did something similar with another rival in the form of Drakul. After all, it's very hard to be a threat to the King of Hell if you're trapped in human form on Earth. This is my own little WAG on the shared history between Kincaid and the Denarians.

But that bit aside, I still think there is a very strong case that Drakul will turn out to be the Demon Lord we've only seen hinted at. Hopefully something that might come to light in Peace Talks.

Anyways, that's all i've got for the moment. Hope you enjoyed.

[Yuillegan]

A very, very interesting idea. I certainly see how it could work. Hell gets a few hints - it seems to be a place made up a lot of nasty spirit beings but with likely many individual players, but they all heed the largest entity. Like a criminal underworld, some beings are stronger and some are weaker but the biggest crime organisation is the one that keeps it all together. Like rival gangs but no one messes with the most powerful gang - the Fallen.

Perhaps Drakul resents the upset that was caused by the arrival of the Fallen.

Also, it is interesting that Drakul and Demon Lord are both mentioned are discussed in Dead Beat, a book about necromancers and even vampires (with the shadow of Kemmler too), but also in the same book is Mavra who works directly for Drakul and next appears in Battle Ground with him...using necromancy. Too many coincidences. Certainly suggests Drakul is at least involved with the Black Council but not necessarily working for or even with Cowl. The Demon Lord is an interesting reference in that book. Could be just for flavour. But what if it wasn't.

However there are some problems.
Almost every being cannot cross a threshold uninvited. Fae can if they have good intentions (but this could be related to their special links to humans, and their partly human nature). Angels seem to have no issues (not Fallen), or perhaps only Archangels, but they also don't seem to exist in the same time-stream either. But otherwise most spooky things seem to have an issue one way or another. This seems weirdly tied up with the extreme importance that almost all supernatural beings have around rules of hospitality. The noted exceptions are Outsiders who both don't care and have an obvious metaphor keeping them out of Reality, and the Old Ones are thought to be strong enough to cross thresholds like they don't matter and still have an awful lot of power.

Curiously, the constant references to Hell around Drakul could be a bit of hint. Not only that, the Old Ones (who rule the Outsiders) were considered to be a race of Demon Gods who were locked Outside (or in some cases, deep in the earth). So we know that Demon Gods can be pretty powerful. Not only that, some of the only other beings that disregard thresholds are gods. And the Old One "the Sleeper" even created it's own "holy" ground.

I don't know that I am yet totally convinced Drakul is a demon lord. But it's intriguing and definitely worth more discussion. Certainly, the author makes good cases for why it's less likely for Drakul to be Lucifer (the quote seems to outright discard Drakul as a possibility), or for Drakul to be a Dragon (again, the quotes imply there are only two Dragons left) unless people think Drakul is Ferro or Pyro. However the grammar implies Drakul is a separate being to either of them.

Drakul could very well still be an Outsider. An easy answer to why Drakul is allowed on team reality (in that scenario) is that he switched sides. The devil you know. Why an Outsider would switch when they apparently all work together is unknown. But it could be Drakul wishes to rule on his own, or perhaps he is a really long term sleeper agent. But in saying that...I think it's starting to look more like he genuinely wishes to rule. Which the Demon Lord thing would make more sense.       

[groinkick]

A very, very interesting idea. I certainly see how it could work. Hell gets a few hints - it seems to be a place made up a lot of nasty spirit beings but with likely many individual players, but they all heed the largest entity. Like a criminal underworld, some beings are stronger and some are weaker but the biggest crime organisation is the one that keeps it all together. Like rival gangs but no one messes with the most powerful gang - the Fallen.

Perhaps Drakul resents the upset that was caused by the arrival of the Fallen.

Also, it is interesting that Drakul and Demon Lord are both mentioned are discussed in Dead Beat, a book about necromancers and even vampires (with the shadow of Kemmler too), but also in the same book is Mavra who works directly for Drakul and next appears in Battle Ground with him...using necromancy. Too many coincidences. Certainly suggests Drakul is at least involved with the Black Council but not necessarily working for or even with Cowl. The Demon Lord is an interesting reference in that book. Could be just for flavour. But what if it wasn't.

However there are some problems.
Almost every being cannot cross a threshold uninvited. Fae can if they have good intentions (but this could be related to their special links to humans, and their partly human nature). Angels seem to have no issues (not Fallen), or perhaps only Archangels, but they also don't seem to exist in the same time-stream either. But otherwise most spooky things seem to have an issue one way or another. This seems weirdly tied up with the extreme importance that almost all supernatural beings have around rules of hospitality. The noted exceptions are Outsiders who both don't care and have an obvious metaphor keeping them out of Reality, and the Old Ones are thought to be strong enough to cross thresholds like they don't matter and still have an awful lot of power.

Curiously, the constant references to Hell around Drakul could be a bit of hint. Not only that, the Old Ones (who rule the Outsiders) were considered to be a race of Demon Gods who were locked Outside (or in some cases, deep in the earth). So we know that Demon Gods can be pretty powerful. Not only that, some of the only other beings that disregard thresholds are gods. And the Old One "the Sleeper" even created it's own "holy" ground.

I don't know that I am yet totally convinced Drakul is a demon lord. But it's intriguing and definitely worth more discussion. Certainly, the author makes good cases for why it's less likely for Drakul to be Lucifer (the quote seems to outright discard Drakul as a possibility), or for Drakul to be a Dragon (again, the quotes imply there are only two Dragons left) unless people think Drakul is Ferro or Pyro. However the grammar implies Drakul is a separate being to either of them.

Drakul could very well still be an Outsider. An easy answer to why Drakul is allowed on team reality (in that scenario) is that he switched sides. The devil you know. Why an Outsider would switch when they apparently all work together is unknown. But it could be Drakul wishes to rule on his own, or perhaps he is a really long term sleeper agent. But in saying that...I think it's starting to look more like he genuinely wishes to rule. Which the Demon Lord thing would make more sense.     

I read another Reddit post that talked about Drakul and Dragon.  The theory was that the name was actually in reference to Drakul being the son of Uther Pendragon, and the brother of King Arthur. 

I am actually wondering of Drakul, and Merlin are twin brothers, and Starborns.  Merlin of legend was born with the union of an incubus, and a Kings daughter.....  That has Raith written all over it.  I see one brother being good, and the other bad.  Of course White Court aren't able to really do much magic so I don't know.  It's all so dang good and it will be years before we know!

[Yuillegan]

I read another Reddit post that talked about Drakul and Dragon.  The theory was that the name was actually in reference to Drakul being the son of Uther Pendragon, and the brother of King Arthur. 

I am actually wondering of Drakul, and Merlin are twin brothers, and Starborns.  Merlin of legend was born with the union of an incubus, and a Kings daughter.....  That has Raith written all over it.  I see one brother being good, and the other bad.  Of course White Court aren't able to really do much magic so I don't know.  It's all so dang good and it will be years before we know!

Yeah I read it to. It's an entertaining theory. It falls apart though when you consider Drakul is far, far older than the middle ages as he has been many monsters through history plus the Black Court has been around since the dawn of mankind. But I could definitely see a connection with Arthurian tales.

I am sure Merlin (the original) and Drakul crossed paths. Perhaps as allies, perhaps as enemies, perhaps both. Maybe at a starborn convention. I agree though that Merlin Emrys clearly either has a White Court or Demonic connection, if you take his origins as true.

It will be a long time. That said we just had some big reveals. Might get a few more!

[The_Sibelis]

Eh, I'm not convinced there's not a connection between dragons, Drakul, and Lucifer. Mostly because of Michael's words in GP when repelling Mavra. "Blood of the dragon, that old for.." or something to that effect.
Here's an idea that just formulated reading this, and it would perhaps connect the dots. Drakul is the son of Lucifer, whom Lucifer helped trap in human form to keep him from being more of a threat to himself?
The way I originally interpret things though, is Dragons used to hold the position of the erstwhile angels.(Woj on perhaps angels only believe themselves to be the original timeless beings) and that's what Lucifer was when he fell, a dragon without wings would be a serpent imo. Then he had Drakul, who spawned the black court. So when Michael says that about 'blood of the dragon' he's being quite literal. They aren't dragons, but they have their blood so to speak. Sorta like the theories on Maggie and left over effects of having a half red mother, she's not a Red, but she might still be relative.. a new breed, different enough to avoid the bloodline curse.
*As for Drakul being an outsider... Look at mother winter...

[groinkick]

Eh, I'm not convinced there's not a connection between dragons, Drakul, and Lucifer. Mostly because of Michael's words in GP when repelling Mavra. "Blood of the dragon, that old for.." or something to that effect.
Here's an idea that just formulated reading this, and it would perhaps connect the dots. Drakul is the son of Lucifer, whom Lucifer helped trap in human form to keep him from being more of a threat to himself?
The way I originally interpret things though, is Dragons used to hold the position of the erstwhile angels.(Woj on perhaps angels only believe themselves to be the original timeless beings) and that's what Lucifer was when he fell, a dragon without wings would be a serpent imo. Then he had Drakul, who spawned the black court. So when Michael says that about 'blood of the dragon' he's being quite literal. They aren't dragons, but they have their blood so to speak. Sorta like the theories on Maggie and left over effects of having a half red mother, she's not a Red, but she might still be relative.. a new breed, different enough to avoid the bloodline curse.
*As for Drakul being an outsider... Look at mother winter...

I disagree.  Bonea is a joining of a Fallen, and a mortal.  She has the vast knowledge of a Fallen.  Drakul just doesn't feel like that to me.  Could he have the vast knowledge of a Fallen?  I suppose, but I just don't get that impression.

Also when Eb was talking about him, he just called him "The Creature", I'd imagine the Council knows his origins, and if he was from lucifer himself, I'd think it would have been mentioned.

Also when Morgan talked about Dresden in his journal he mentioned his concern about Dresden being a "creature" of Nemesis.  He was concerned about Dresden being a destroyer....  Whatever Drakul is, it feels like Dresden could become the same.  So I think it's more about drawing in the power, and becoming something else.

Lash said that Starborn have influence over Outsiders....  What if Harry can draw in the power from the Outside, and use it as his own?  Like tapping into a Layline....  Of course that kind of power would warp the person who did it.

[groinkick]

Oh there is another clue I forgot about.  Does anyone remember when the FBI agent Soulgazed Dresden?  He screamed out that he didn't believe in hell.....  Perhaps a clue into a Starborn's power?

[The_Sibelis]

I disagree.  Bonea is a joining of a Fallen, and a mortal.  She has the vast knowledge of a Fallen.  Drakul just doesn't feel like that to me.  Could he have the vast knowledge of a Fallen?  I suppose, but I just don't get that impression.

Bonnie is a spirit of intellect. Not all children are created equally. Does maggie have Uber knowledge of reds? Ancestral memories? Do you think there was actually love and sacrifice between Lucy and... Anything else? Then why in the literal hell would it be the same quality?

Also when Eb was talking about him, he just called him "The Creature", I'd imagine the Council knows his origins, and if he was from lucifer himself, I'd think it would have been mentioned.

A. Literary device
B. How would they specifically know? This depends entirely on them knowing. Michael doesn't need to consciously know on the other hand, could be he gleaned the insight from the sword taking them on all those years ago.
C. The same wizards... Who've been upfront about the origins and purpose of DR? Starborn? Pretty much anything at all? Idk about you, but PT-BG kinda set the wizards up to look like major asshats in this particular department.

Also when Morgan talked about Dresden in his journal he mentioned his concern about Dresden being a "creature" of Nemesis.  He was concerned about Dresden being a destroyer....  Whatever Drakul is, it feels like Dresden could become the same.  So I think it's more about drawing in the power, and becoming something else.

they are both starborn, the difference is Drakul was never human. Ergo has non human origins. Not A creature, but THE creature.

Lash said that Starborn have influence over Outsiders....  What if Harry can draw in the power from the Outside, and use it as his own?  Like tapping into a Layline....  Of course that kind of power would warp the person who did it.

Oh there is another clue I forgot about.  Does anyone remember when the FBI agent Soulgazed Dresden?  He screamed out that he didn't believe in hell.....  Perhaps a clue into a Starborn's power?

he saw Dresden as the horsemen death... With hell following after. That was how he interpretated hwwbh. It's... Accurate imo.

[K.L.O.E.]

Oh there is another clue I forgot about.  Does anyone remember when the FBI agent Soulgazed Dresden?  He screamed out that he didn't believe in hell.....  Perhaps a clue into a Starborn's power?

I still stand by my theory that the Starborn are a result of Lucifer's fall and him being stripped of his Grace. There's a WoJ where he states that the Nickleheads are what's left after they were stripped of their Grace and that Starborn have literally been around since the dawn of creation. The Fallen were thrown into Hell, their graces were thrown through the walls of reality forming the Outer Gates. Starborn then gain power from the radiance red-shifting backwards and the angels keep moving planets around so it's every 666 years.