Justin and Simon may be dead but they may also be

[The_Sibelis]

Been looking at how the BC fed on the wizards in BG, basically just smothering them and eating their life force.. I wasn't sure about that considering how the Blamp in... BR(?) Simply tried to bite Harry. But it occurs to me. If they do feed directly on Life force... And the DH works specifically based on how many people die from it, then it's really just a big meal for them. Could even be what they showed up in BGs to do. Thinking Mavra or Drakul will take the upgrade at some point and they'll be the Boss of a book in the future (also there is still the possibility the DH will let them change their current nature..). With the now promised BC revenge book it's even more likely I think.. but idk if they'll become the main villains. I think multiple groups will compete concurrently for that, but the main enemies will be the walkers in the end.

[Arjan]

Indeed. Many possibilities could have occurred that allowed Justin to fake his own death for a number of purposes, or even return from death. Harry is hardly the most reliable source.
Unless Justin intended for Harry to kill him or appear to do so.

Actually Harry in Ghost Story is a pretty reliable source, Dead seems to improve your memory.

[groinkick]

Been looking at how the BC fed on the wizards in BG, basically just smothering them and eating their life force.. I wasn't sure about that considering how the Blamp in... BR(?) Simply tried to bite Harry. But it occurs to me. If they do feed directly on Life force... And the DH works specifically based on how many people die from it, then it's really just a big meal for them. Could even be what they showed up in BGs to do. Thinking Mavra or Drakul will take the upgrade at some point and they'll be the Boss of a book in the future (also there is still the possibility the DH will let them change their current nature..). With the now promised BC revenge book it's even more likely I think.. but idk if they'll become the main villains. I think multiple groups will compete concurrently for that, but the main enemies will be the walkers in the end.

Yeah I feel like all the bad guys, and good guys know something bad is brewing.  So they are trying to build up their strength to face what's coming.  I don't know where Drakul falls into this, but even he might be afraid of Empty Night.  In the end I do think the Outside is the enemy but I don't know who it is who wants to bring them in.

[Bad Alias]

Indeed. Many possibilities could have occurred that allowed Justin to fake his own death for a number of purposes, or even return from death. Harry is hardly the most reliable source.
Unless Justin intended for Harry to kill him or appear to do so.

Sure, but I'm just saying Justin starting a fight with Harry in order to fake his death would be something coming straight out of left field, unless we get more between now and then.

Been looking at how the BC fed on the wizards in BG, basically just smothering them and eating their life force..

I didn't get that at all. I'll have to pay attention when I reread.

[The_Sibelis]

Yeah I feel like all the bad guys, and good guys know something bad is brewing.  So they are trying to build up their strength to face what's coming.  I don't know where Drakul falls into this, but even he might be afraid of Empty Night.  In the end I do think the Outside is the enemy but I don't know who it is who wants to bring them in.

perhaps that's just the thing though, maybe the whole thing leads to a key event where the gates are gonna be open for a period of time?
By my reconing, hells bells signify the arrival of something, perhaps they are closest to the breach or maybe even have a back door of some sort. In early books Jim hadn't quite drawn the line between demon and outsider I noticed.
Stars and stones is clearly a starborn event.. spitballing a few ideas, something to do with starborn becoming immortal, the biblical interpretation of wormwood as a stone that hits earth, or just a general musical chairs between the outsiders and immortals/reality in general. Starborn are from some sort of light shining on earth at the point of birth yes? Gives them some sort of outsider ability.. perhaps a much brighter light will shine and totally negative the veils or consume them?
And empty night.. the vampiric origin means a night without mortals, without prey. You could easily take that a step bigger and say without reality. Though if we're talking more literal stars I wonder about the five that appeared in the sky when Harry took the WK mantle..
Although who would specifically want to open the gates? Why I think that answers been in front of our face all along... The one who has supreme power over them just as Harry does DR.. queen Mab."and the stars will fall from the sky before queen mab fulfills not her word." Talk about prophecy lol. Even the fact she has a specific counter to stop her seems to me to say she's destined to go ape $hit. Mab doesn't seem the type anymore to make a play to take everything the way they spell it out. She's pretty devoted to her duty and she shouldn't change that.. which means an outside force will have that effect on her. I wonder if this isn't why Mab advised Harry to kill Molly in the event of her death. Molly isn't set in stone yet. It's almost the same situation as the archive, a still mortal host holding an immortal mantle still has some choice.

didn't get that at all. I'll have to pay attention when I reread.

yea.. idk I kinda expected more biting, something like a Uber zombie feeding. But that's not what it appeared to be like.

[morriswalters]

I am Mab. The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word.

Which I take to refer to the fall of the Outer Gates and the death of Mab.

[Yuillegan]

Actually Harry in Ghost Story is a pretty reliable source, Dead seems to improve your memory.

Only when you are in fact dead. Not after you return... But I was referring to how the series is Harry's recount of his life and has been shown to be an unreliable account on many, many occasions to the point where people think time-travel and parallel universes must be involved (which is quite possibly the case for at least some of the inconsistencies). Jim has also talked about how what Harry tells us is only true from his point of view, and that colors a lot of what we see and are told. This is apparent in some of the short stories. Beyond that, the next book in the series tentatively titled "Twelve Months" is going to deal with how Harry leaves out a lot from his stories as well, as there are some bits that were too traumatic for him to share.

Yeah I feel like all the bad guys, and good guys know something bad is brewing.  So they are trying to build up their strength to face what's coming.  I don't know where Drakul falls into this, but even he might be afraid of Empty Night.  In the end I do think the Outside is the enemy but I don't know who it is who wants to bring them in.

I suspect even if he isn't "afraid" of Empty Night it isn't his goal. Drakul seems to want to rule the world, rather than burn it down. I think those that want to burn everything are an anarchist, perhaps loosely connected (perhaps not) group of corrupted beings/people. This Black Council type. Those that feel the system is broken, those that feel disenfranchised, those that want the end to level things out.

Sure, but I'm just saying Justin starting a fight with Harry in order to fake his death would be something coming straight out of left field, unless we get more between now and then.

It would be I suppose - I more thought he turned a bad situation into a good one seeing an opportunity. Perhaps he wanted Dresden to kill someone and he wasn't sure how else to achieve that. I agree though, it would be a bit of a surprise. Perhaps that's why it would be a good move for Jim.

Which I take to refer to the fall of the Outer Gates and the death of Mab.

Indeed, I think a few people believe that. The significance of the stars falling hasn't been guessed at convincingly though as far as I have read around the internet.

[Bad Alias]

[Reply to Yuillegan] Sure, but I'm just saying Justin starting a fight with Harry in order to fake his death would be something coming straight out of left field, unless we get more between now and then.

The child apparently murdered Justin in something very like a duel, and I am unsure if I am more frightened by the prospect that it was a deception to simulate Justin’s death — or if it wasn’t.

(From the microfiction Journal) I forgot about this line. Apparently Morgan felt Justin had reason enough to do it (fake his killing by Harry) to be haunted by the possibility. So maybe not as out of left field as I was thinking. There's some explicit groundwork for it already. And I can think of reasons myself now.

As has been mentioned repeatedly both here and in the series, Harry has been shaped. One of the ways that's pointed out is how he has been shaped to use magic for violence. That might have been one reason Justin would deceive Harry into thinking he killed him.

But wouldn't Justin not have done that because he was shaping Harry for a purpose, knew the Wardens would show up, and likely kill Harry, thus wasting all that work? No. He knew Margaret. Margaret and McCoy's relationship isn't as secret as Harry and McCoy seem to think. Odin, Gatekeeper, Arianna, and Morgan all knew. Presumably Luccio as well the way Morgan mentions it in his journal. Morgan knew that McCoy wouldn't allow the Council to simply execute Harry. Justin could have reasonably known everything to deduce that as well. Further, he likely would have known Harry would have be given over to McCoy who would teach him lessons that would make Harry more likely to use magic for violence. Harry chose his way of life in large part because of McCoy's teachings. It wouldn't take much for Harry to end up fighting all sorts of things with magic.

Given what is at stake, it would have been better to remove the child from play — but the Blackstaff couldn’t let his daughter’s son be neutralized.

Also from Journal.

In the early books, Harry didn't do much fighting. He mostly helped other people figure stuff out. Find lost items. Point the police in the right direction. Help people who found out they had magic deal with it and get control. Something where he fought with magic was the extreme exception. Then his first two cases happen. They could have been set up explicitly to get him involved to the point he would have to use magic for violence. If Sells hadn't gone after Harry violently and directly, Harry would have left him to Murphy. Harry has been pushed into positions where he couldn't just call the Council or the cops repeatedly. That may have been the primary point of FM. In SF, we can at least guess that the point was to test the bloodline curse, but what was the point of FM?

Harry being shaped by all these forces might answer the question why all these things happen in Chicago. Because Harry is there. If Harry was somewhere else, the powers manipulating Harry would have made sure things happened there as well. Or, if Chicago itself was important, they may shaped Harry's decision to settle there.

I'm not saying that Justin provoked Harry into a fight to fake his death to put Harry on a path that would make him comfortable using magic for violence happened. I'm saying that Jim has laid the groundwork for it. It wouldn't be poor writing at this point to have Justin show up for those reasons. It wouldn't be what I think of as a "cheat" twist. The evidence is there for it to be predicted.

[Yuillegan]

(From the microfiction Journal) I forgot about this line. Apparently Morgan felt Justin had reason enough to do it (fake his killing by Harry) to be haunted by the possibility. So maybe not as out of left field as I was thinking. There's some explicit groundwork for it already. And I can think of reasons myself now.

Weird. I totally forgot that but it's nice to feel a little vindicated. Although perhaps Jim is leaving himself options too. And Morgan clearly thinks that a 16 year old murdering a warden like Justin is very scary - with an implication that Harry might be a terrible threat but unrealised most of the time. However, from what we get it overall it seems more likely to me that Justin faked his death. But that doesn't discount Harry the terrible monster either.

As has been mentioned repeatedly both here and in the series, Harry has been shaped. One of the ways that's pointed out is how he has been shaped to use magic for violence. That might have been one reason Justin would deceive Harry into thinking he killed him.

I was just discussing this in the "Why didn't Drakul..." thread. I think the shaping is very important to who and what Harry is. And clearly it's been done by more than just the villains - almost everyone involved who is a player seem to do this. He Who Walks Behind, Justin, Cowl, Drakul even use combat as a lesson. But I would argue that Lea, Mab, Vadderung, the Erlking and even Uriel seem to try and mould Harry just as much.

But wouldn't Justin not have done that because he was shaping Harry for a purpose, knew the Wardens would show up, and likely kill Harry, thus wasting all that work? No. He knew Margaret. Margaret and McCoy's relationship isn't as secret as Harry and McCoy seem to think. Odin, Gatekeeper, Arianna, and Morgan all knew. Presumably Luccio as well the way Morgan mentions it in his journal. Morgan knew that McCoy wouldn't allow the Council to simply execute Harry. Justin could have reasonably known everything to deduce that as well. Further, he likely would have known Harry would have be given over to McCoy who would teach him lessons that would make Harry more likely to use magic for violence. Harry chose his way of life in large part because of McCoy's teachings. It wouldn't take much for Harry to end up fighting all sorts of things with magic.

I agree...I think. If I understand you right, Justin wasn't all that worried that his hard work would be wasted and merely adapted (if not planned for) a change in the situation. Maybe it didn't go the exact way he wanted but I think he had already done enough. This seems to be what Ancient Mai was worried about in Summer Knight when considering whether to strip him of his wizard's title.

Also from Journal.

In the early books, Harry didn't do much fighting. He mostly helped other people figure stuff out. Find lost items. Point the police in the right direction. Help people who found out they had magic deal with it and get control. Something where he fought with magic was the extreme exception. Then his first two cases happen. They could have been set up explicitly to get him involved to the point he would have to use magic for violence. If Sells hadn't gone after Harry violently and directly, Harry would have left him to Murphy. Harry has been pushed into positions where he couldn't just call the Council or the cops repeatedly. That may have been the primary point of FM. In SF, we can at least guess that the point was to test the bloodline curse, but what was the point of FM?

Perhaps you are right. In any case, the result was Harry became far more concerned with outside events and dealt with them violently and severe prejudice. As Marcone has remarked before, it's a reasonable thing to expect an enemy of Harry Dresden's to end up dead. Even someone who just crossed his way.

Harry being shaped by all these forces might answer the question why all these things happen in Chicago. Because Harry is there. If Harry was somewhere else, the powers manipulating Harry would have made sure things happened there as well. Or, if Chicago itself was important, they may shaped Harry's decision to settle there.

Ooh interesting idea. That either he was pushed into Chicago or he brings far more to Chicago than he realised. I'd say it's a bit of both.

I'm not saying that Justin provoked Harry into a fight to fake his death to put Harry on a path that would make him comfortable using magic for violence happened. I'm saying that Jim has laid the groundwork for it. It wouldn't be poor writing at this point to have Justin show up for those reasons. It wouldn't be what I think of as a "cheat" twist. The evidence is there for it to be predicted.

Agreed. The appropriate groundwork is there for a Justin return. How elegantly that happens and how satisfying it is depends a lot on how Jim chooses to bring Justin back. I more think the faked death just coincided with the plan for Harry, not that it was a critical part of it. But who knows? Although I will say this, perhaps Justin's own trick is partly what Vadderung is referencing when Harry "dies".

[Bad Alias]

I totally forgot that but it's nice to feel as little vindicated.

It's probably nicer than knowing I can admit I was wrong. 

I think it's more likely Harry killed Justin than Justin faked his death, but I definitely don't think it should be dismissed.

And clearly it's been done by more than just the villains - almost everyone involved who is a player seem to do this. He Who Walks Behind, Justin, Cowl, Drakul even use combat as a lesson. But I would argue that Lea, Mab, Vadderung, the Erlking and even Uriel seem to try and mould Harry just as much.

Yeah.

I agree...I think. If I understand you right, Justin wasn't all that worried that his hard work would be wasted and merely adapted (if not planned for) a change in the situation.

I don't think it was a change in Justin's plans, under that theory. I'm not saying I buy the theory. I'm just saying it's a theory that explains how Jim could plausibly and believably pull off a Justin isn't dead storyline. And it's not the only believable way Jim could bring Justin back.

I'd say it's a bit of both.

Usually a better answer than one explanation when the two explanations aren't mutually exclusive.

[morriswalters]

Indeed, I think a few people believe that. The significance of the stars falling hasn't been guessed at convincingly though as far as I have read around the internet.

“In what is coming,” the Walker said. “The unraveling of all things into darkness and silence.” “Empty Night,” I breathed. “Empty Night,” the creature echoed, in the hushed tone of a holy phrase.

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 361). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I would think that the stars would need to fall from the sky's for Empty Night. That's my best guess.  I'm a literalist.

[Yuillegan]

It's probably nicer than knowing I can admit I was wrong. 

I think it's more likely Harry killed Justin than Justin faked his death, but I definitely don't think it should be dismissed.

I don't think it was a change in Justin's plans, under that theory. I'm not saying I buy the theory. I'm just saying it's a theory that explains how Jim could plausibly and believably pull off a Justin isn't dead storyline. And it's not the only believable way Jim could bring Justin back.

Hah! Yeah, I would be surprised if Jim answers these questions anytime soon. Might not be until Mirror Mirror or even the BAT. Which is annoying but we have come this far...

Agreed, many ways to allow the return of Justin. Although many don't believe so. Whatever the theory about Justin's death, I think the one thing that should be fairly apparent is that he will return in some form.

Usually a better answer than one explanation when the two explanations aren't mutually exclusive.

Very true.

I would think that the stars would need to fall from the sky's for Empty Night. That's my best guess.  I'm a literalist.

It certainly would suit Jim's style. I always think back to that description of the battlefield Outside the Outer Gates (I think capitalising Outside is correct when somewhere is beyond those Gates). The hungry night with a rolling dark, empty sky. I suspect that somehow this is what would be the reality should the Outsiders win. Interestingly, in the Bible there is a whole bit about the Dragon (Satan) taking a third of the stars (angels) with him. Perhaps the stars falling would be linked to the fall/death of the remaining angels? Supernatural did a very literal version of that in some later season I believe, where all the angels were kicked out of Heaven and appear as falling stars.