Justin and Simon may be dead but they may also be

[groinkick]

Undead.  Battle Ground, and Drakul has changed things.  He appears to be attempting to grow his numbers.  I doubt that he just started trying to turn wizards during Battle Ground.  I wouldn't be surprised if he used the war with the Red Court to grab some wizards like Simon.  He may have even grabbed Justin, if he'd been in contact with him at the time.

I know it may be unlikely, especially for Justin.  That being said, Justin wanted Harry as a thrall because he's a Starborn.  Drakul knows Harry is a Starborn.  He may have been paying attention to things for some time.  He works differently than a human because his concept of time is much different.  Hey may well have been growing the Black Courts numbers in secret for 100 years, or longer.

The the Reds gone, the Fomor getting their butts kicked, we may see a new enemy rise...  The Black Court.

[Yuillegan]

Honestly...that would be awesome. And kinda a great sucker punch. The Black Court rises again would be awesome - although surely at some point Drakul will solve the whole "Stoker weakness" issues.

Would be so very cool if Drakul literally built his own Black Council of undead BCV wizards. Good choices too.

Jim has tried to make us think the Black Court is finished, and also said that Drakul prefers a small A-Team thing rather than a full on Red Court style organisation/nation. I don't think there would be much point in raising an army if their weaknesses were obvious and well known. Would be far better if they had most or all of their weaknesses removed.

I doubt Drakul has any of the normal vulnerabilities except perhaps to Faith magic.

But what a great idea. I hope Jim does it.

[groinkick]

Honestly...that would be awesome. And kinda a great sucker punch. The Black Court rises again would be awesome - although surely at some point Drakul will solve the whole "Stoker weakness" issues.

Would be so very cool if Drakul literally built his own Black Council of undead BCV wizards. Good choices too.

Jim has tried to make us think the Black Court is finished, and also said that Drakul prefers a small A-Team thing rather than a full on Red Court style organisation/nation. I don't think there would be much point in raising an army if their weaknesses were obvious and well known. Would be far better if they had most or all of their weaknesses removed.

I doubt Drakul has any of the normal vulnerabilities except perhaps to Faith magic.

But what a great idea. I hope Jim does it.

Here is an idea.  What if Justin had been turned Black Court right before he attacked Harry.  He could have used glamour to hide his being dead already.  He may have been able to survive the fire being a member of the Court as well.

[Yuillegan]

Here is an idea.  What if Justin had been turned Black Court right before he attacked Harry.  He could have used glamour to hide his being dead already.  He may have been able to survive the fire being a member of the Court as well.

Probably not. Not at least in Dead Beat anyway. Harry specifically notes Cowl's magic while strong didn't feel inhuman.

[spiritofair]

Would just be amazing, especially since it has been telegraphed for a LONG time with the very name of the "Black Council".

[groinkick]

Probably not. Not at least in Dead Beat anyway. Harry specifically notes Cowl's magic while strong didn't feel inhuman.

I don't think Cowl is Justin.  I think Justin may be Black Court, but I dont think he's Cowl.

[Yuillegan]

I don't think Cowl is Justin.  I think Justin may be Black Court, but I dont think he's Cowl.

Oh sorry I misunderstood you. My mind was on another thread. It is possible I suppose, but generally Black Court are quite susceptible to fire so that would make it even more likely Justin died.

Would just be amazing, especially since it has been telegraphed for a LONG time with the very name of the "Black Council".

Yeah I know right!

[groinkick]

Oh sorry I misunderstood you. My mind was on another thread. It is possible I suppose, but generally Black Court are quite susceptible to fire so that would make it even more likely Justin died.

perhaps but didn't Harry believe Mavra had also been killed, and she returned?

[Bad Alias]

perhaps but didn't Harry believe Mavra had also been killed, and she returned?

He believed that until Kincaid brought up that it was likely a different vampire that got roasted, so yes, he believed Mavra was dead but only for a few days at the most. I can't remember if the conversation is right after they kill "all" the vampires or when Harry calls Kincaid in the last chapter. He's believed Justin was dead since he was 16.

[Yuillegan]

perhaps but didn't Harry believe Mavra had also been killed, and she returned?

Yes he did, but Bad Alias is correct. Kincaid helps him realise that wily villains like Mavra are survivors. They don't stay that way for hundreds of years without a few tricks, like using body doubles. But it does feel like Jim was also hinting Mavra might not be the only person to use such tactics *places tinfoil hat back on head*

[KurtinStGeorge]

Simon Pietrovich being a member of the Black Court.  That is an interesting idea.  My only problem with it is, I think it was stated in Summer Knight that it was an inside job.  The Red Court didn't breach Simon's defenses, someone let them in.  So, that would mean one of three things, either (1) Simon was turned by Drakul first and let the Red Court in, or (2) Simon had some kind of deal going, let the Red Court in and was betrayed and turned over to Drakul or (3) someone else on Simon's team was the traitor.

The problem with 1 is, how would Drakul get past Simon's defenses to turn him?  It seems unlikely if not impossible.  Number 2 is doable, but it's complicated.  It's got too many moving parts.  Occam's Razor doesn't like it.  Number 3 appears to be the most likely solution, but unless someone we know was with Simon at Archangel it would mean some random nobody betrayed Simon and the Brute Squad.   

[Bad Alias]

Yes he did, but Bad Alias is correct. Kincaid helps him realise that wily villains like Mavra are survivors. They don't stay that way for hundreds of years without a few tricks, like using body doubles. But it does feel like Jim was also hinting Mavra might not be the only person to use such tactics *places tinfoil hat back on head*

Yeah. There's a reason I didn't say the difference meant that groinkick was wrong. It just makes it less likely. We all wear a little bit of tinfoil around here.

[groinkick]

He believed that until Kincaid brought up that it was likely a different vampire that got roasted, so yes, he believed Mavra was dead but only for a few days at the most. I can't remember if the conversation is right after they kill "all" the vampires or when Harry calls Kincaid in the last chapter. He's believed Justin was dead since he was 16.

Is the judgement, and memory of a 16 year old reliable against someone who was as skilled as Justin?  Harry watched him die, but what if it was simply another person, and Justin had thrown glamour on them to trick Harry? 

He might have actually been under mind control, and killed someone else.  What better way to fake your death than to mind control someone into killing a fake you, burning them to ash.

[Bad Alias]

I could see something that had Justin trick Harry into thinking he died. I just don't see why he would be faking his death before fighting with Harry.

[Yuillegan]

Is the judgement, and memory of a 16 year old reliable against someone who was as skilled as Justin?  Harry watched him die, but what if it was simply another person, and Justin had thrown glamour on them to trick Harry? 

He might have actually been under mind control, and killed someone else.  What better way to fake your death than to mind control someone into killing a fake you, burning them to ash.

Indeed. Many possibilities could have occurred that allowed Justin to fake his own death for a number of purposes, or even return from death. Harry is hardly the most reliable source.

I could see something that had Justin trick Harry into thinking he died. I just don't see why he would be faking his death before fighting with Harry.

Unless Justin intended for Harry to kill him or appear to do so.