"Good People" Verses "Christmas Eve" Mab

[Mira]

  In "Christmas Eve" we have Mab paying a visit to Harry at the Carpenter house with a gift for
little Maggie that was influenced by the movie, "Frozen."  Now Mab did make some "Mabbish" demands with it, like to be sure little Maggie knows who that gift comes from.  We hear from Molly that Mab had consulted with Sarissa and had actually sat through the movie, and she totally hates Disney.  Longand the short of it, it was a small gesture of humanity on Mab's part towards Harry..  My question is,did Molly have a lot more to do with it than Sarissa?                                                                                         

In "Good People,"  Mab confronts Molly and tells her she has to give up being human if she is ever going to succeed as a Winter Queen.  Molly isn't about to take any crap, gets in her face and tells her where she can put the ice..  Mab oddly backs down, a reaction we've seen before, but when Harry has done very much the same thing.  Now Mab does accuse Molly of some "Summer" behavior, but I think she was just blowing frost.  I think Molly was able to melt that ice cube that Mab has as a heart just a bit, thus, though it wasn't much and she needed Sarissa's help, she made the gesture that she did towards Harry with the gift for little Maggie without losing her image..

[Arjan]

Mab is very rational. If Molly can explain herself rationally in terms of her job she will listen. Mab can make Molly obey perhaps but that is not the normal way things work apparently.

Mab really takes Molly seriously.

[Mira]

Mab is very rational. If Molly can explain herself rationally in terms of her job she will listen. Mab can make Molly obey perhaps but that is not the normal way things work apparently.

Mab really takes Molly seriously.

But was this what motivated Mab to show "kindness" towards Harry on Christmas Eve?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Molly was able to accomplish what she did in Good People not despite her Mantle, but because of it. This would indicate Molly has unlocked previously unexplored potential in the Mantle even Mab was unaware of, due in no small part to her humanity and the influence of her father.

This must be terribly disconcerting to Mab, what sort of Winter Queen would Molly make? It’s clear from Christmas Eve the same potential exists in the Queens Mantle as the Mantle would have rebelled against Molly’s and Sarissa’s urging otherwise. Mab is how she is at least in part because of her choice, not the Mantle, and that’s what makes her a villain, and Molly a hero. Molly has chosen differently and the Mantle is acquiescing. She will accompany and work with Kringle in the future, and Kringle approves. He has always updated and changed, Mab hasn’t but the new Winter Lady.

You do realise that when Harry finds out (and he will) he will get Molly an Elf Outfit and a pair of Spock Ears.

[Arjan]

But was this what motivated Mab to show "kindness" towards Harry on Christmas Eve?

It was not kindness but Mab felt it proper to give a present. For her it is an obligation and she takes them seriously.

But Mab might get influenced by Molly’s actions. She will give it a completely strange Mab interpretation though.

[K.L.O.E.]

Molly was able to accomplish what she did in Good People not despite her Mantle, but because of it. This would indicate Molly has unlocked previously unexplored potential in the Mantle even Mab was unaware of, due in no small part to her humanity and the influence of her father.

This must be terribly disconcerting to Mab, what sort of Winter Queen would Molly make? It’s clear from Christmas Eve the same potential exists in the Queens Mantle as the Mantle would have rebelled against Molly’s and Sarissa’s urging otherwise. Mab is how she is at least in part because of her choice, not the Mantle, and that’s what makes her a villain, and Molly a hero. Molly has chosen differently and the Mantle is acquiescing. She will accompany and work with Kringle in the future, and Kringle approves. He has always updated and changed, Mab hasn’t but the new Winter Lady.

You do realise that when Harry finds out (and he will) he will get Molly an Elf Outfit and a pair of Spock Ears.

I wonder how much of Mab was made by choice and how much of her humanity sort of eroded away as she summoned the Banner over the ages. We know that Kringle through his various alter-egos has some connection with humanity still. What if Mab didn't have that connection through the Mantle? Or that by giving up that part of her she lost access to some of the strength of Winter?

[deadvoid]

On the other hand it makes me consider that I can't really think of any literal reason why Mab is considered villainous

[Dina]

As I usually say, JB has changed Mab. In the first books it is mentioned several times how cruel is Mab. How she likes to torture people, and not only Slate. In Changes, Harry says something along the lines that she is the less of the evils because she is not wicked, and in BG she is like a Vulcan. So I understand she began as a villain but she is not that anymore. And I bet in the next books she will be regaining parts of her humanity and when she dies (BAT, I guess) she will have her redemption.

[morriswalters]

She attempted to kill the Archive by letting the Hobs loose in a train station.  Kidnapped Molly and brought her to Arctis Tor and let the Scarecrow dine on her. Set the fetches on the movie theater owner just to get Harry's attention. Tortures Slate to madness.

[deadvoid]

She attempted to kill the Archive by letting the Hobs loose in a train station.  Kidnapped Molly and brought her to Arctis Tor and let the Scarecrow dine on her. Set the fetches on the movie theater owner just to get Harry's attention. Tortures Slate to madness.

Kidnapped Molly, this was at the time when Maeve was Nfected & Arctis Tor was recently attacked in PG, not sure what the entire picture is actually like but it sounds like a manipulation to put Molly & Harry together, which Michael said "Maybe this was about getting Molly to protect you, Harry", which might points to not just Mab but also Uriel, as Mab conveyed she worked with Uriel in the aftermath of SF.


Mab also sent Harry to save the Archive if the Hobs failed in that book (SF). It's cold blooded manipulation, but as I pointed out in the other thread, Uriel also manipulated Harry at the risk of his mortal soul, no regret no admission & yet he's not consider a villain by Harry, Jim or readers. 

Slate was directly involved in Nfected Maeve scheme, he betrayed Winter. If that punishment is out of ordinary for Winter Court, then maybe it's a villainous act, but was it? I don't think so.

[Arjan]

She attempted to kill the Archive by letting the Hobs loose in a train station.  Kidnapped Molly and brought her to Arctis Tor and let the Scarecrow dine on her. Set the fetches on the movie theater owner just to get Harry's attention. Tortures Slate to madness.

She does what she thinks is necessary which Can be horrible and does not has to be necessary. That was always the case and was mentioned in old woj. The difference is that we now know how important her purpose is and how hard she works for it. She becomes more complicated when we get close to her but she was never that one dimensional.

It will be denied and Uriel will have a big tale about choice and free will but maybe he had something to do with putting Molly into position as well. Uriel is the one who says he does nothing and suddenly everything falls into place. His cooperation with Odin and Mab in changes is also telling.

But even earlier in grave peril Michael can not interfere in a deal between Harry and Lea.

[morriswalters]

Morally the end doesn't justify the means.

@Mira
Molly was bait, used first by Maeve and the BC and then by Mab in PG. Harry was the catch in both cases.

[Arjan]

Morally the end doesn't justify the means.

That is made more complicated because Jim makes the end the survival of everyone and this reality. Then the question becomes are these means really necessary? Molly tries to prove it is not.

In reality the means are just part of your end. If Mab kills someone to save the world the world is not saved for that person. The dead of that person is part of the end, not just a way to get there.

The real meaning of the saying is: My end justifies the means.

So sometimes the end really justifies the means but more often it does not. I think everyone can make up examples.

[deadvoid]

As I usually say, JB has changed Mab. In the first books it is mentioned several times how cruel is Mab. How she likes to torture people, and not only Slate. In Changes, Harry says something along the lines that she is the less of the evils because she is not wicked, and in BG she is like a Vulcan. So I understand she began as a villain but she is not that anymore. And I bet in the next books she will be regaining parts of her humanity and when she dies (BAT, I guess) she will have her redemption.

That's one way to perceive the progress of her character, I kind of think she perceived that her death is imminent.
The other is that she's just casted in the light as a villain because Harry thought so, humans are biased towards "monsters" after all. The next is that we're being set up to a routine to lull us until a moment which she launches a major betrayal.

[Arjan]

Man is mostly described from Harry’s point of view and his point of view changes. He gets closer to Mab and sees things in more detail. I do not think Mab changed that much, the Mab we see now already came through in some earlier woj. The character is more fleshed out.

Also the concept of complete alien and impossible to understand Sidhe is just not possible to maintain and to write if you get closer to them.