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[deadvoid]

Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.

And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.

can escape Winter & survive, then not in any way that keeps her above the ground? you completely lost me

Mab was pushing Molly so she'd be prepared to be a Queen, that's her (or maybe more accurately Mother's) idea of Fae Court power hierarchy, Lady has to be a competent successor to wield Winter with all of its power & duties whenever needed in order to maintain the balance; it's been major theme of several books now. She even explicitly told Harry to kill Molly if she fell in Battle of Bean because Molly wasn't fully prepared, that's Jim vehicle to deliver the current situation to readers: Molly isn't fully Fae yet despite not being fully human too or otherwise her magic wouldn't allow her to use electronics. She was telling Molly drop the humanity & embrace Winter fully, rip the bandaid quickly & accept the reality, because according to her clinging to humanity is futile & won't end well. Regardless if she's correct (she did have extensive experience there), Mab haven't been anything but straight forward about the job descriptions & its expectations, not like she can lie about them if she tried.

[bigdangmoose]

can escape Winter & survive, then not in any way that keeps her above the ground? you completely lost me

Mab was pushing Molly so she'd be prepared to be a Queen, that's her (or maybe more accurately Mother's) idea of Fae Court power hierarchy, Lady has to be a competent successor to wield Winter with all of its power & duties whenever needed in order to maintain the balance; it's been major theme of several books now. She even explicitly told Harry to kill Molly if she fell in Battle of Bean because Molly wasn't fully prepared, that's Jim vehicle to deliver the current situation to readers: Molly isn't fully Fae yet despite not being fully human too or otherwise her magic wouldn't allow her to use electronics. She was telling Molly drop the humanity & embrace Winter fully, rip the bandaid quickly & accept the reality, because according to her clinging to humanity is futile & won't end well. Regardless if she's correct (she did have extensive experience there), Mab haven't been anything but straight forward about the job descriptions & its expectations, not like she can lie about them if she tried.

I said we know that there is a way for Molly to lose the mantle and survive. Molly know that she can lose the mantle, but as far as she knows, she will have to die to do it. That was the reference of keeping above ground.

And as for lies, just look at the end of GS. She technically lies to Harry because she thinks she can control him, deceive him. She could just as easily tell Molly to lose the humanity to be a better Queen because she knows that it will be a quick move to be more powerful. But she also knows her Knight and that her Lady is just like her Knight. So by telling her a partial truth, she may be pushing her to be a better Lady than her own daughter by being herself. Half truth with the fae are not lies, just not the whole truth. And yes, Molly becoming Queen so soon wouldn't be good for her. But Molly the Queen after getting a good hold of her abilities and keeping her humanity may be what Winter needs, and Mab may be jealous of that because she went through becoming Queen and not having time to master the balance as Lady.

[Arjan]

Well, she can escape Winter. We know it can be done and survive. She know she can escape it too, but not in any way that keeps her above ground.

And for her and her mortal life, it may be that Mab is telling her this to push her into being a better WL and keep her humanity. We saw how Maeve turned out when she just let her humanity go. But maybe it's because she knows how much Molly loves Harry and wants her to lose her humanity to keep them both in her service. Or maybe it's just that Mab needs Molly as ruthless and cut throat as herself because of what is coming down the road and thinks that her humanity will hold her back, when we all know it's what makes her and Harry stronger.

I do not think Maeve let her humanity go. All those mommy issues and so on they are not good but they are very human. Humanity is much more than just the good bits.

Mab has one vision about what a good winter queen should be but that is not the only vision possible. It might not even be the best one for this role. Kringle clearly approves of what Molly was doing and that is worth something. It shows that her path was not stupid.

And I do not think escape is the plan for Molly. This is important work. She wants to do it and to make the best of it. She might even have lunches with Uriel in future. Mab has her opinions but she is prepared to listen to others. She clearly thinks about what Molly tells her and let’s her find her way even if she expresses her strong opinions, she does not order her in this.

This is also about what mother summer said to Harry, about keeping the core of what you are. Maybe even about how the old mother summer could pension off.

Jim is shifting the rules here or telling us what usually happens can be much more complicated.

[deadvoid]

I can't say I know what way Molly can leave her Winter mantle, can't tell which Lady quit her job & survived.

And as for lies, just look at the end of GS. She technically lies to Harry because she thinks she can control him, deceive him. She could just as easily tell Molly to lose the humanity to be a better Queen because she knows that it will be a quick move to be more powerful. But she also knows her Knight and that her Lady is just like her Knight.

If we're going with technicalities here, in the same Ghost Story's chapter Harry pointed out that technically Uriel manipulated him into a gambit with the risk of Harry losing his literal, actual, soul. So why do Mab gets labelled as Bad when she had been proven more forthcoming whenever she said something to Harry or Molly than Uriel, who won't even admit anything to Harry? When have she reneged on what she said she will do to/for Harry, even he remarked that Mab keeps her words.

So by telling her a partial truth, she may be pushing her to be a better Lady than her own daughter by being herself. Half truth with the fae are not lies, just not the whole truth. And yes, Molly becoming Queen so soon wouldn't be good for her. But Molly the Queen after getting a good hold of her abilities and keeping her humanity may be what Winter needs, and Mab may be jealous of that because she went through becoming Queen and not having time to master the balance as Lady.

nah I don't buy it, it sounds very much like conjecture to me, I mean unless there's more than twice of interactions/action and/or there are inconsistencies in the (behavioural) pattern, I don't make guesses on what a character might be up to; and for Mab this is very much her standard pattern, a consistent & repeated pattern, too. Is it possible? Yes of course anything is possible, after all Jim still considers her a villain, but there's nothing solid to back it up.

[Mira]

that's exactly what she meant, it's pretty clear.

Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.

If we're going with technicalities here, in the same Ghost Story's chapter Harry pointed out that technically Uriel manipulated him into a gambit with the risk of Harry losing his literal, actual, soul. So why do Mab gets labelled as Bad when she had been proven more forthcoming whenever she said something to Harry or Molly than Uriel, who won't even admit anything to Harry? When have she reneged on what she said she will do to/for Harry, even he remarked that Mab keeps her words.

No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk.  He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk.  It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn. 

[TheCuriousFan]

Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk.  He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk.  It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.

It's tough luck for all the people who died without Harry in the gap between Changes and Skin Game because Uriel chose not to tell Harry when summoned after the whisper.

[Arjan]

Yes, that is why she said Molly was acting summer like.. But both Molly and Harry disagree with her.
No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk.  He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk.  It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.

Uriel is too smart for that. He left the manipulation part to Murphy’s father.

[deadvoid]

Of course they don't agree with her, they're not Fae, Molly isn't fully one yet, and it isn't like she can choose to be Summer vassal.

No, Uriel didn't manipulate Harry into the risk.  He manipulated Mab into going along with the risk, because the only way to save Harry's soul, was to put it at risk.  It was the only way to teach him the lesson he needed to learn.

Uh no, that's not what happened, Uriel manipulated Harry into thinking he's truly dead & he won't lose his soul when he went back, what Mab went through was the result of Harry tried to cheat her out of their deal.

“Look, kid, you’re stuck here. You aren’t going anywhere until we get this discrepancy sorted out.”
“Why not?”
“Because what comes after isn’t for people who are rubbernecking over their shoulders or bitching about how unfair they had it,” Jack said, his expression frank. “So, we sort out how you got screwed over. Then you get to move on to what’s next.”
I thought of being trapped in the hollow shell of the city outside and shuddered. “Okay. How do we fix it?”
“You go back,” Jack said. “And you catch the scum who did you.”
“Back?” I said. “Back to . . .”
“Earth, yeah,” Jack said. “Chicago.” He closed the folder and dropped it into his out-box. “You gotta find out who killed you.”
I arched an eyebrow at him. “You’re kidding.”
He stared at me, his expression as jovial as a mountain crag.
I rolled my eyes. “You want me to solve my own murder?”
He shrugged. “You want a job here instead, I can set you up.”
“Augh,” I said, shuddering again. “No.”
“Okay,” he said. “Any questions?”
“Uh,” I said. “What do you mean when you say you’re sending me back? I mean . . . back to my body or . . . ?”
“Nah,” he said. “Isn’t available. Isn’t how it works. You go back as you are.”
I frowned at him and then down at myself. “As a spirit,” I said.
He spread his hands, as if I had just comprehended some vast and weighty truth. “Don’t hang around for sunrise. Watch out for thresholds. You know the drill.”
“Yeah,” I said, disturbed. “But without my body . . .”
“Won’t have much magic. Most people can’t see you, hear you. Won’t be able to touch things.”
I stared at him. “How am I supposed to find anything out like that?” I asked.
Jack lifted both hands. “Kid, I don’t make the law. I make sure it gets observed.” He squinted at me. “Besides. I thought you were a detective.”
I clenched my jaw and glared at him. My glare isn’t bad, but he wasn’t impressed. I exhaled slowly and then said, “Solve my own murder.”
He nodded.

[Arjan]

Of course they don't agree with her, they're not Fae, Molly isn't fully one yet, and it isn't like she can choose to be Summer vassal.

Uh no, that's not what happened, Uriel manipulated Harry into thinking he's truly dead & he won't lose his soul when he went back, what Mab went through was the result of Harry tried to cheat her out of their deal.

Except that we later discover that Jack is not Uriel but Murphy’s father. Of course he manipulated Harry into helping his daughter. Uriel could have known that would happen but Uriel always maintains deniability and can always points to a free willed choice made by someone else.

Technically true of course but for all practical purposes Uriel did manipulate things with a light but very effective touch.

Also I don’t think Uriel seems that concerned about Molly being the winter lady.

[deadvoid]

Except that we later discover that Jack is not Uriel but Murphy’s father. Of course he manipulated Harry into helping his daughter. Uriel could have known that would happen but Uriel always maintains deniability and can always points to a free willed choice made by someone else.

Technically true of course but for all practical purposes Uriel did manipulate things with a light but very effective touch.

Also I don’t think Uriel seems that concerned about Molly being the winter lady.

Yeah but as Uriel's the boss and Jack weren't living human nor he free to choose Heaven, Hell or Between, it's really peculiar how Jack just told him to go back, told him nothing about the real why (Charmichael said they're big on why), makes you wonder who came up with the plan & who approved it? Not Jack of course.

Yeah, not sure about Uriel thoughts about Molly, probably can't do anything about her

[TrueMonk]

But would it be the right thing to do for Molly to get out?

I mean, she is protecting reality and is, as far as we can tell, very good at it. And she is to some degree protecting humanity from the winter fae, if nothing else she is keeping the mantle from someone who would be far worse.

[Arjan]

Yeah but as Uriel's the boss and Jack weren't living human nor he free to choose Heaven, Hell or Between, it's really peculiar how Jack just told him to go back, told him nothing about the real why (Charmichael said they're big on why), makes you wonder who came up with the plan & who approved it? Not Jack of course.

Yeah, not sure about Uriel thoughts about Molly, probably can't do anything about her

I think Jack was free to choose. That is the whole idea of in between, he can go on to what is next later and before that he can help Uriel with some stuff and improve his soul a bit. It is Jacks soul without a body but he is as free to choose as Harry was. Uriel told Jack to pick up Harry and give him some explanation because Jack was far more free to tell Harry things than Uriel and Uriel got plausible deniability out of it. :

Uriel, bless his angelic heart, closed his eyes for a moment and took a deep, calming breath. “Collin . . .” he said, in a reproving, parental tone.
 “I might have mentioned something about it,” Jack said. “Sure. Guy’s got a lot of friends. Friends are running around fighting monsters. I figure at least three of them are going to get hurt if he isn’t there to back them up. Seemed reasonable.”
 “Collin,” Uriel said, his voice touched with an ocean of disappointment and a teaspoon of anger. “You lied.”
 “I speculated,” Captain Jack replied. “I got him to do the right thing, didn’t I?”
 “Collin, our purpose is to defend freedom—not to decide how it should be used.”
 “Everything I told him was technically true, more or less, and I got  the job done,” Jack said stubbornly. “Look, sir, if I were perfect, I wouldn’t be working here in the first place. Now, would I?”
 And then he hung up. On speakerphone. On a freaking archangel.

The plan was Uriel but Jack decided to push it in the desired direction in a way Uriel would and probably could never have done. He wanted to help his daughter and that was more important. We have a theme here.

But maybe Uriel had an idea that that could happen and that is why Collin got the assignment.

[Arjan]

But would it be the right thing to do for Molly to get out?

I mean, she is protecting reality and is, as far as we can tell, very good at it. And she is to some degree protecting humanity from the winter fae, if nothing else she is keeping the mantle from someone who would be far worse.

Probably not unless you are so fixated upon saving your own soul that you forget anyone else.

[deadvoid]

I think Jack was free to choose. That is the whole idea of in between, he can go on to what is next later and before that he can help Uriel with some stuff and improve his soul a bit. It is Jacks soul without a body but he is as free to choose as Harry was.

That really depends on whether suicide is a cardinal sin or not in Dresdenverse, Jim made it sounds they chose what they think should happened wrt religion & afterlife, and Catholics don't think they deserve anything but hell

[Arjan]

That really depends on whether suicide is a cardinal sin or not in Dresdenverse, Jim made it sounds they chose what they think should happened wrt religion & afterlife, and Catholics don't think they deserve anything but hell

But did he commit suicide? Not according to some woj I remember vaguely.

Nicodemus has committed enough cardinal sins to get straight to hell but the knights still try to save him. Uriel and others tell us that as long as you are alive and you have free will you can make choices and you are not definitively lost. You can still work to improve your soul.

Apparently that extend to bodiless wandering souls as long as they don’t go to what is next. Harry and Collin. Between seems to be set up for this goal. Uriel gives them the chance to make choices and Collin made use of that.

This is Jim’s world and he does not follow all Christianity’s dogmas. The impression I get is that you shape your soul with the free willed choices you make and that shaping is not completed until you die and go on to what is next and that is not Between.