Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry

[Mira]

I think you playe here with different meanings of the word reason.

Yes, it cuts both ways, I Googled the meaning of the word, reason.

A reason explains why you do something. ... Reason usually has to do with thought and logic, as opposed to emotion. If people think you show good reason, or are reasonable, it means you think things through. If people think you have a good reason for doing something, it means you have a motive that makes sense.

In Harry's case it cuts both ways.  There is a good reason why he acted the way he did, Murphy's murder triggered an emotional violent response.  Was there thought and logic behind it? No, it was a pure violent emotional reaction to Murphy's senseless murder.  Was it a reasonable reaction? Yes, on many levels, especially in the context it happened.  So you can say Harry's motive for losing it makes sense.. However "reason" had very little to do with it.

Here is another little tidbit..

What means the same as reason?
logic, reasoning, sense, motivation, goal, basis, idea, incentive, argument, motive, impetus, purpose, rationale, consideration, cause, proof, case, justification, excuse, speculate.

Some of these apply, others certainly do not. 

[forumghost]

I mean I feel like the real difference in Harry's case is that when he snapped and went after Rudolph he was no longer in a position to keep the Winter Knight in Check.

Harry was not running the show there until Butter's snapped him back out of it- it was evident in the way he was happy that Sanya was there because "Yay, he'd put up more of a fight" and the way he referred to Rudolph as "that thing". It was very much reminiscent of when he leaned too hard on the Mantle at the end of Cold Days.

[morriswalters]

He does exactly the same thing in Grave Peril without the Mantle and Eb stops him in exactly the same way.

@Mira

There is a good reason why he acted the way he did, Murphy's murder triggered an emotional violent response.  Was there thought and logic behind it? No, it was a pure violent emotional reaction to Murphy's senseless murder.  Was it a reasonable reaction? Yes, on many levels, especially in the context it happened.  So you can say Harry's motive for losing it makes sense.. However "reason" had very little to do with it.

If it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.

[Arjan]

He does exactly the same thing in Grave Peril without the Mantle and Eb stops him in exactly the same way.

@MiraIf it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.

Harry’s decision was an emotional one based on very human instincts. There was no rational decision making about the pro and con of killing Rudolph, there was anger and rage.

Santa and Butters represent civilization here. About the control of your emotions to make community possible. Harry had to sacrifice his revenge for the greater good.

Or if you want Christianity is a tool for central government to support their monopoly on violence. That was one of its historical functions anyway.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Harry’s decision was an emotional one based on very human instincts. There was no rational decision making about the pro and con of killing Rudolph, there was anger and rage.

Santa and Butters represent civilization here. About the control of your emotions to make community possible. Harry had to sacrifice his revenge for the greater good.

Or if you want Christianity is a tool for central government to support their monopoly on violence. That was one of its historical functions anyway.

I don't disagree with you, but I'd like to to address morriswalters in a manner that gets to the heart of his argument.

He does exactly the same thing in Grave Peril without the Mantle and Eb stops him in exactly the same way.

@MiraIf it were reasonable then why did both Sanya and Butters work so hard to stop him? And I don't care if you use reason as explanation or reason as a rational way of thinking. In the real world I wouldn't let him in close, and I'd question his ability to raise a child. I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry.

It's not that Harry was reasonable.  What is reasonable is to know that human beings can become irrational and violent when circumstances push them past the restraints of rational thinking and moral boundaries.  At least Harry's initial response was understandable and reasonable to predict.  I say this as someone who; when I was much younger had jobs that led me to be involved in several street fights.  (I should mention they were legal jobs like loss prevention, bouncer and body guard.)  I've been shot at; though thankfully only once and not on the job, and I've had more than one person try to use a knife or other edged weapon against me.  I know what it's like to nearly beat someone to death.  I also know what it's like to stop myself from doing so.   

To me, there were two elements of Harry's behavior that stood out and are distinct from one another.  The first was Harry's initial attack against Rudolph.  I would expect that under the same or similar circumstances; not every person, but a large percentage of population would react with a similar amount of rage and violence; if they were capable of physically delivering it.  What was more disturbing was how long Harry held onto that rage and that he seemed to be reveling in it.  I think a much smaller percentage of the population would go that far, but I have no doubt some people would.  When Harry lets his anger control him you understand why the White Council is afraid of him.  So I partially agree with you.  Harry, absolutely needs to address his anger issue before he goes too far one day and can't come back.  However, I don't think he's a lost cause.   

One other minor point.  Mira mentioned adrenaline and its possible effect on Harry.  An extreme adrenaline rush; the kind that's supposed to allow an ordinary person to pick up a car for a few seconds, only lasts for about 5 to 10 seconds tops and maybe only 3 to 5 seconds.  I know because I've experienced it.  It feels like a hand grenade going off inside your chest in slow motion, and every muscle in your body that's involved in the fight or flight response just sings with energy.  I never understood why someone could become an adrenaline junkie until I felt that feeling.  It was the scariest moment of my life but it felt SO DAMN GOOD.  It did feel like I could lift a car off of a small child if I had to, but that wasn't the problem I was dealing with.  From what I've read after this experience, your body still produces adrenaline after the first release, just not at that initial insane level.  So I discount Harry's adrenaline level as being much of an influence on his behavior over more than a few seconds.

[morriswalters]

It isn't that I think he's a lost cause.  He's the hero of our story. But everything from the time he was conceived was meant to manipulate him and turn him into a monster who can and will kill. That's what Jim has written.  And at the moment he attacks Rudolph he becomes what Justin meant him to be. This was Justin's plan.  It's a classic recipe for a sociopath.

[Dina]

I disagree (with that and with your previous post). Harry exploded in angry like most people would had, and the mantle did not allowed it to stop himself. But there were very extenuating circumstances. No one is going to kill his love again in the middle of a war that depends completely on him (he knows he is the only one that would bind the Titan, he knows the plan of all the coalition is on his shoulder). He is not dangerous for Maggie in any case.
"I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry."

Well, Sanya, Butters, Michael (and Mab) all seem to think different. Harry is not crazy, not is he going around force-choking people like Darth Vader. He is a good man at core and he loves Maggie.

It's the outburst what worries you so much? Would you feel safer around Marcone, because he is cold and calculating?

[Arjan]

Rage is always disturbing because the person in rage can not be reasoned with and it is unpredictable how far he will go. Rage is scary and you tend to back away from a person in rage even if you know he is somewhat weaker than you. It is the height of irrationality. It is also one of the last defences of someone who can not handle a situation. It is bad news. We have a first person view of Harry’s rage here but a second person view would be much scarier.

Rage with magic is even worse in the dresdenverse. It can lead to decisions that have long term influences on you and change you in a different direction. This is not just scary in itself. It is even more scary because of how the dresdenverse works.

The person in rage always has reasons. Sometimes even very good ones. But he is always unreasonable, he can not be reasoned with.

[Dina]

I agree, Arjan. I still think Dresden is not a danger for Maggie and I would lke him around me.

[TheCuriousFan]

I don't disagree with you, but I'd like to to address morriswalters in a manner that gets to the heart of his argument.

It's not that Harry was reasonable.  What is reasonable is to know that human beings can become irrational and violent when circumstances push them past the restraints of rational thinking and moral boundaries.  At least Harry's initial response was understandable and reasonable to predict.  I say this as someone who; when I was much younger had jobs that led me to be involved in several street fights.  (I should mention they were legal jobs like loss prevention, bouncer and body guard.)  I've been shot at; though thankfully only once and not on the job, and I've had more than one person try to use a knife or other edged weapon against me.  I know what it's like to nearly beat someone to death.  I also know what it's like to stop myself from doing so.   

To me, there were two elements of Harry's behavior that stood out and are distinct from one another.  The first was Harry's initial attack against Rudolph.  I would expect that under the same or similar circumstances; not every person, but a large percentage of population would react with a similar amount of rage and violence; if they were capable of physically delivering it.  What was more disturbing was how long Harry held onto that rage and that he seemed to be reveling in it.  I think a much smaller percentage of the population would go that far, but I have no doubt some people would.  When Harry lets his anger control him you understand why the White Council is afraid of him.  So I partially agree with you.  Harry, absolutely needs to address his anger issue before he goes too far one day and can't come back.  However, I don't think he's a lost cause.   

One other minor point.  Mira mentioned adrenaline and its possible effect on Harry.  An extreme adrenaline rush; the kind that's supposed to allow an ordinary person to pick up a car for a few seconds, only lasts for about 5 to 10 seconds tops and maybe only 3 to 5 seconds.  I know because I've experienced it.  It feels like a hand grenade going off inside your chest in slow motion, and every muscle in your body that's involved in the fight or flight response just sings with energy.  I never understood why someone could become an adrenaline junkie until I felt that feeling.  It was the scariest moment of my life but it felt SO DAMN GOOD.  It did feel like I could lift a car off of a small child if I had to, but that wasn't the problem I was dealing with.  From what I've read after this experience, your body still produces adrenaline after the first release, just not at that initial insane level.  So I discount Harry's adrenaline level as being much of an influence on his behavior over more than a few seconds.

And if someone's REALLY got under your skin in the past like that you can can still give yourself a palpable (if lesser) surge of adrenaline just thinking about them.

[Arjan]

I agree, Arjan. I still think Dresden is not a danger for Maggie and I would lke him around me.

No problem but you should be careful with his protective instincts if you see both Harry and Maggie together 

[Dina]

I know 

[Mira]

To me, there were two elements of Harry's behavior that stood out and are distinct from one another.  The first was Harry's initial attack against Rudolph.  I would expect that under the same or similar circumstances; not every person, but a large percentage of population would react with a similar amount of rage and violence; if they were capable of physically delivering it.  What was more disturbing was how long Harry held onto that rage and that he seemed to be reveling in it.  I think a much smaller percentage of the population would go that far, but I have no doubt some people would.  When Harry lets his anger control him you understand why the White Council is afraid of him.  So I partially agree with you.  Harry, absolutely needs to address his anger issue before he goes too far one day and can't come back.  However, I don't think he's a lost cause.   

One question, but if you don't care to answer it, I understand. You said you've felt that kind of rage, did you stop yourself in the end or did someone else prevent you from causing further damage?

But back to the story, you also say that it is disturbing that it took so much and it so long before Harry could be stopped.  I think that is where the mantle comes in, it lives for rape and violence, it revels in it, it makes whoever holds it, a monster if not tightly controlled.  Since Changes Harry has
fought those effects, not always successfully, but more than most, because he understands both the benefits it brings in a fight, and the draw backs because it is mindless and stimulates the strictly mindless animal parts of the brain.  His reaction to Murphy's murder was a normal human one, but then it triggered the mantle, that took over and it was no longer human, it was no longer Harry.  It took an archangel to stop him, a burn from a Holy Sword to cut through his very real pain, and the mantle's power to bring him back to being just Harry once more.   The fact that he could be brought back, feels real remorse for losing it and continues to feel shame when he thinks of that burn says he still is the good man he always was.  Both Butters and Sanya understand that, the archangel in charge of the Sword of Hope also understands that, that is why Harry merely got a nasty burn to remind him of his danger and very near fall, It didn't cut his arm off. 

[TheCuriousFan]

One question, but if you don't care to answer it, I understand. You said you've felt that kind of rage, did you stop yourself in the end or did someone else prevent you from causing further damage?

But back to the story, you also say that it is disturbing that it took so much and it so long before Harry could be stopped.  I think that is where the mantle comes in, it lives for rape and violence, it revels in it, it makes whoever holds it, a monster if not tightly controlled.  Since Changes Harry has
fought those effects, not always successfully, but more than most, because he understands both the benefits it brings in a fight, and the draw backs because it is mindless and stimulates the strictly mindless animal parts of the brain.  His reaction to Murphy's murder was a normal human one, but then it triggered the mantle, that took over and it was no longer human, it was no longer Harry.  It took an archangel to stop him, a burn from a Holy Sword to cut through his very real pain, and the mantle's power to bring him back to being just Harry once more.   The fact that he could be brought back, feels real remorse for losing it and continues to feel shame when he thinks of that burn says he still is the good man he always was.  Both Butters and Sanya understand that, the archangel in charge of the Sword of Hope also understands that, that is why Harry merely got a nasty burn to remind him of his danger and very near fall, It didn't cut his arm off.

Don't forget the forced empathy for Rudolph, the intent was nicer but the sword did the same thing that the WK mantle did in twisting Harry's emotional state in a desired direction.

[morriswalters]

I disagree (with that and with your previous post). Harry exploded in angry like most people would had, and the mantle did not allowed it to stop himself. But there were very extenuating circumstances. No one is going to kill his love again in the middle of a war that depends completely on him (he knows he is the only one that would bind the Titan, he knows the plan of all the coalition is on his shoulder). He is not dangerous for Maggie in any case.
"I wouldn't want him next to me in any capacity where I had to depend on him. Especially if he couldn't tell friend from foe when he gets angry."

Well, Sanya, Butters, Michael (and Mab) all seem to think different. Harry is not crazy, not is he going around force-choking people like Darth Vader. He is a good man at core and he loves Maggie.

It's the outburst what worries you so much? Would you feel safer around Marcone, because he is cold and calculating?

Nothing about it worries me at all.  He's a fictional character.  Jim's did it for a reason and you are getting my opinion on what the reason is. There is a reason for showing Harry experiencing that loss of control.  Jim has Harry quote a line from Marvel comics.  "With great power comes great responsibility." Is this suddenly not true in the canon of the books because Harry is having a bad day? In the real world I don't know any crime lords or superheroes. Nor do I have any desire to.  In Battle Ground these fictional caharacters kill 60000 people.  Why would you want to know them?

One question, but if you don't care to answer it, I understand. You said you've felt that kind of rage, did you stop yourself in the end or did someone else prevent you from causing further damage?

A friend got me moving out of the house. For the record it never occurred to me to attack him.  Unless there is an underlying mental illness you can't maintain that level of anger for very long.  It drains you.  There is even a nickname for what happens. Amygdala hijack.