Something Occured to Me as to Why the Senior Council is so Afraid of Harry

[BrainFireBob]

I have long thought much was overlooked here.

Harry has no bargain granting the Guard. Normally, you bargain with milk, bread, and honey for information. Toot, perhaps out of friendship, perhaps greed, told Harry pizza was even more valued.

Harry had no bargain. He began giving pizza, which is of ultimate value to the Little Folk, without strings. Their acceptance creates an obligation for them to provide something he values even as they value the pizza- so yes, I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.

 Wouldn't surprise me to find that each "clan" of the Little Folk supplies a member, and when one falls another grows much larger quickly.

I also think there's an implied joke with their being "dockworkers of the Nevernever" and their power when organized. This is Chicagah, an' 'Arry's Hoffa.

[deadvoid]

Harry had no bargain. He began giving pizza, which is of ultimate value to the Little Folk, without strings. Their acceptance creates an obligation for them to provide something he values even as they value the pizza- so yes, I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.

Yeah, sort of, it was not gift I think, he bribed them. What Harry did was bribing them to some effect because he valued their past & future help.

The cause of fealty for wyld faes is probably different than what we know of the courts. Although from their lack of creepiness nature, I'd tend to think they'd have to be descendants/creatures from Summer's side, Toot toot & co were independent IIRC since they were ignored by both sides (perhaps no one thought they'd be useful for anything), it's likely that their fealty is theirs to give, that for any type of (independent) wyld faes it's just a matter of being left alone or end up at the mercy of Winter or Summer sidhes' will. So unless given or taken, nothing binds them, which means no obligations to pick court sides, unlike faes who were born from the bloodlines of both courts (or maybe just sidhes, creatures don't have that much freedom).

But I strongly suspect it's deeper than just transactional level of bargains, once they pick/get picked they can't switch to any other side.

[Arjan]

It is also there are so many of them. Some were serving summer or winter like lacuna for example but most were not.

[BrainFireBob]

Yeah, sort of, it was not gift I think, he bribed them. What Harry did was bribing them to some effect because he valued their past & future help.

The cause of fealty for wyld faes is probably different than what we know of the courts. Although from their lack of creepiness nature, I'd tend to think they'd have to be descendants/creatures from Summer's side, Toot toot & co were independent IIRC since they were ignored by both sides (perhaps no one thought they'd be useful for anything), it's likely that their fealty is theirs to give, that for any type of (independent) wyld faes it's just a matter of being left alone or end up at the mercy of Winter or Summer sidhes' will. So unless given or taken, nothing binds them, which means no obligations to pick court sides, unlike faes who were born from the bloodlines of both courts (or maybe just sidhes, creatures don't have that much freedom).

But I strongly suspect it's deeper than just transactional level of bargains, once they pick/get picked they can't switch to any other side.

I don't think you can bribe the Fae, you can bargain.

When Harry entraps Toot, he offers him a bargain: Give him information, and he'll release Toot.

It's an exchange of value. The Fae seem to be something like TFM fundamentalists in this regard- they have to keep their word. Mab frequently talks about balancing the scales.

I rather think that Harry's open-ended, non-negotiated gift of pizza means that the scales were balanced at the rate of how the Little Folk value pizza, not how Harry values pizza or pizza is objectively valued. If you bargain poorly, that's on you, and that's how the Fae grow; either clever bargains or loaning out renewable resources.

As to the alignment of Wyldfae, this is explained by Toot himself in Summer Knight. When the Courts move to war, the Wyldfae find themselves drawn karmically to whichever Court is closest to their most recent behavior (the line is something like "if you've been doing mean stuff recently, you go to Winter")- the dewdrop faeries are normally Summer aligned, but Toot's group at that point are loyal to Harry.

Reading Summer Knight, it's not clear if the dewdrops were in the bag with the boxcutters, or Harry was able to summon them. Mab specifically notes that "it is rare for a mortal to be able to Call the Fae"- note the capitol? I think, even this early, that the Summer and Winter Courts sent out a call to the Wyldfae to join the court most closely aligned with their loyalty- and the proto-Guard showed up at Harry over *either* Court, and he was able to "Call" or summon them to him to defeat Aurora.

[Mira]

  Remember too, when Harry became Winter Knight, suddenly Toot was wearing Winter Colors, saying if I remember correctly, "we're Winter now," or something like that.

[Telynn]

I have long thought much was overlooked here.

Harry has no bargain granting the Guard. Normally, you bargain with milk, bread, and honey for information. Toot, perhaps out of friendship, perhaps greed, told Harry pizza was even more valued.

Harry had no bargain. He began giving pizza, which is of ultimate value to the Little Folk, without strings. Their acceptance creates an obligation for them to provide something he values even as they value the pizza- so yes, I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.

 Wouldn't surprise me to find that each "clan" of the Little Folk supplies a member, and when one falls another grows much larger quickly.

I also think there's an implied joke with their being "dockworkers of the Nevernever" and their power when organized. This is Chicagah, an' 'Arry's Hoffa.

I hadn't really thought if it like that but yes, that does track with what we know of the Fae.  At first there was a balance between the pizza provided and what Toot did for Harry.  But think of that looooong stretch where Winter was supplying the pizza and Harry was basically MIA and not asking for anything in return.  The build up of the imbalance would definitely be a big motivating factor in the little folk responding to Harry.  Even Harry felt a bit of an 'itch' at some point when favors weren't balanced between him and someone else.  Pure Fae like the little folk would get that in spades.  Although I do think Toot does have personal loyalty to Harry.  Maybe some of the other little folk do too, due to his rescue of their kin and the way he treats them.  But the massive amount he called in BG, some, if not most, were just plain obligated.  And being in fear of losing all the pizza didn't hurt any either.

[Arjan]

Or they are obligated to Toot. He is the one that organizes everything at pixie level.

[Mira]

Or they are obligated to Toot. He is the one that organizes everything at pixie level.

Well, he is Major-General Minimus of Za'Gard, and Harry made him his chief recruiter.

[Bad Alias]

I think the Guard are lifelong feal-bound servants. They value pizza over their lives- they'll go to war for it!- so pledging the lives of some of their own fits. Perhaps it's one per pizza he normally provides.

Lifelong commitments are pretty long when you're biologically immortal. Toot's tenancy in the Chicago area is strongly implied to predate Europeans.

Yeah, sort of, it was not gift I think, he bribed them.

There really isn't a difference between a gift and a payment for faeries.

As to the alignment of Wyldfae, this is explained by Toot himself in Summer Knight. When the Courts move to war, the Wyldfae find themselves drawn karmically to whichever Court is closest to their most recent behavior (the line is something like "if you've been doing mean stuff recently, you go to Winter")- the dewdrop faeries are normally Summer aligned, but Toot's group at that point are loyal to Harry.

I'm pretty sure Toot said "cold things" and "warm things."

Reading Summer Knight, it's not clear if the dewdrops were in the bag with the boxcutters, or Harry was able to summon them. Mab specifically notes that "it is rare for a mortal to be able to Call the Fae"- note the capitol? I think, even this early, that the Summer and Winter Courts sent out a call to the Wyldfae to join the court most closely aligned with their loyalty- and the proto-Guard showed up at Harry over *either* Court, and he was able to "Call" or summon them to him to defeat Aurora.

IMO, they were in the bag. The changelings talked about feeling the Call. I don't think it was a summons. Toot and his crew were called by Harry and thus served neither Winter nor Summer, but served Harry.

At first there was a balance between the pizza provided and what Toot did for Harry.

I don't think there ever really has been. Harry is constantly giving them pizza starting in the epilogue of SF. Throughout the series, whenever he has a specific job for them, he bargains with them for a specific amount of pizza.

He also leaves more traditional "payment" for them by leaving out pizza in his apartment. In the traditional stories of brownies and such I heard before ever picking up the Dresden Files, the Little Folk were paid by leaving out offerings for them. No direct bargain was ever made.

[Arjan]

Lifelong commitments are pretty long when you're biologically immortal. Toot's tenancy in the Chicago area is strongly implied to predate Europeans.

He is import or he belongs to more than one culture. In Changes he shows his Russian connections with Sanya.

There really isn't a difference between a gift and a payment for faeries.
I'm pretty sure Toot said "cold things" and "warm things."
IMO, they were in the bag. The changelings talked about feeling the Call. I don't think it was a summons. Toot and his crew were called by Harry and thus served neither Winter nor Summer, but served Harry.
I don't think there ever really has been. Harry is constantly giving them pizza starting in the epilogue of SF. Throughout the series, whenever he has a specific job for them, he bargains with them for a specific amount of pizza.

He also leaves more traditional "payment" for them by leaving out pizza in his apartment. In the traditional stories of brownies and such I heard before ever picking up the Dresden Files, the Little Folk were paid by leaving out offerings for them. No direct bargain was ever made.

[Ed0517]

On that note... what happens when Einrherjaren die in the mortal realm? Do they go back to Valhalla? Can they fight again? Do they have... resurrective immortality?

I think they do go back to Valhalla to fight again, but I think they have to be resurrected by Odin again. There was a discussion here about whether their re-resurrections cost Odin anything. We now know their initial resurrections are done with soulfire. I think their re-resurrections probably involve the same thing. I don't know it, but there usually isn't a free lunch in the Dresden Files.

i just get the feeling they likely regenerate - they seem totally unconcerned with injury - like when Murphy broke that guy's fingers training. He didn't even act like he was concerned he'd be out of action long - more like "I'll wake up tomorrow ALLLL better..." Not a Free Lunch - when they were resurrected they got a warrantee, they will get fixed up again if they need it again. All worked into the original price.  Like a Craftsman wrench, back in the day.   

Here's one though - I think Murphy was supposedly Catholic, certainly Christian.  Next time they have lunch, might Uriel ask Vadderung about taking one of his? Her spirit was presumably headed for Christian Judgement, not Valhalla. Or is there a deal, maybe she is only an Einherjaren until Armageddon, getting in a little more practice? Then jump the Valhalla-Meggido shuttle? 

[Arjan]

They will be raised in time for the party. I hope Murphy will enjoy it but she certainly will enjoy fighting outsiders. She always expressed her wish to be involved and this was probably the only way to grant that wish.

If there was a deal with Uriel some sort of free willed choice was involved and Murphy really started to behave like a Viking warrior. Freydis thought it hot.

[TrueMonk]

As far as I remember they fight and kill each other every single day on the field outside Odin's hall to train for Ragnarok. And then they drink and feast together in the evening. I don't know of it is the same  applies when they "die" in Midgard.

Thee challenge with using the way they do not fear death to judge whether they get resurrected is that not fearing death is kind of their thing, no matter if it is the permanent kind of death or not.

I guess that an army of super cool warriors made with soulfire is impressive enough, but my guess is still on some kind of rebirth mechanic.

[morriswalters]

they got a warrantee, they will get fixed up again if they need it again. All worked into the original price.  Like a Craftsman wrench, back in the day.   

This made me smile.

[Bad Alias]

He is import or he belongs to more than one culture. In Changes he shows his Russian connections with Sanya.

I've always theorized that he, and other faeries, just a limited intellectus in which the just know things like languages and Winter law.

Not a Free Lunch - when they were resurrected they got a warrantee, they will get fixed up again if they need it again. All worked into the original price.  Like a Craftsman wrench, back in the day.

I'm arguing, to borrow your analogy, that Craftsman has to replace the wrench. Craftsman decided it was better to make a cheaper wrench that most people wouldn't break than to make a better wrench that professionals would break. I have a friend that used to own a muffler shop. He didn't buy Craftsman because, even though it was "free" to replace the broken wrenches, it was better to not have to stop work to replace a broken wrench.