Zoo day

[Dina]

Well, I finally bought Brief Cases and read Zoo day.

For all of you who know me and my feelings about Maggie, this won't be a surprise. I hated that story. A lot. And the WoJ before it made them even worse, with JB saying that Maggie was not in the original plan, that we had a chance of having a non-dad Dresden. Jeez, I would have loved it. But ey, at least I liked Mouse voice, even when he apparently does not know red but knows silver blue. I liked Mouse calling Harry "My Friend", capital letters.

And then, I was surprised to realize I was interested in Austin. I wish we see him again.

[Bad Alias]

I'd like to see Austin again, too.

[Yuillegan]

Even though I don't mind Maggie, I actually agree in that I think the story might have been better off without her. Mostly because it has created this awful thing of Harry being like "I have to be a real Dad and be present and take her to every game of soccer" while the world is ending. It makes almost no sense and drags the story. And while I agree with Dresden's sentiment, I don't find it very believable considering what's going on. It's almost a you can have your cake and eat it type of thing. I personally think it would be better writing and a better story if Dresden has to choose one or the other and we get to see the consequences of it.

I would prefer the story where he chooses to be absent Dad to save the world, or even if forced to and just can't be there for her. That's emotional stuff! But if he chooses to be super Dad and hide from the world and the world goes bad, that would also be interesting. A man who had the power to change things, but didn't. People would be so mad at him. Would make for a darker story I think.

[CrusherJen]

I hear what you're saying... but I don't agree. What we're seeing in the novels and short stories are typically the biggest events in his life-- a highlight (or lowlight) reel. There's plenty of time in between for Harry to deal with more mundane matters, like laundry, paying bills... or managing time with his daughter. We're not seeing him abandon his responsibilities; in Peace Talks we're shown that when he's required to deal with dangerous situations, he sends his daughter to safety so he can go do his job, and Maggie accepts it. Michael Carpenter often had to do the same thing as a Knight of the Cross, yet he still had down-time with his family (if not as much as he would have liked.) If Michael made it work, Harry should be able to as well.

At some point Harry might need to make a choice between Being There for Maggie and saving the world, and that could be interesting. But if the world is ending, it's a fairly slow-moving apocalypse (so far.) So I think we can have both... until the BAT, when all bets are off. A darker turn of the story at that point would be appropriate, but I don't feel we're there yet. But that's just my take on it, YMMV.

[Yuillegan]

I hear what you're saying... but I don't agree. What we're seeing in the novels and short stories are typically the biggest events in his life-- a highlight (or lowlight) reel. There's plenty of time in between for Harry to deal with more mundane matters, like laundry, paying bills... or managing time with his daughter. We're not seeing him abandon his responsibilities; in Peace Talks we're shown that when he's required to deal with dangerous situations, he sends his daughter to safety so he can go do his job, and Maggie accepts it. Michael Carpenter often had to do the same thing as a Knight of the Cross, yet he still had down-time with his family (if not as much as he would have liked.) If Michael made it work, Harry should be able to as well.

At some point Harry might need to make a choice between Being There for Maggie and saving the world, and that could be interesting. But if the world is ending, it's a fairly slow-moving apocalypse (so far.) So I think we can have both... until the BAT, when all bets are off. A darker turn of the story at that point would be appropriate, but I don't feel we're there yet. But that's just my take on it, YMMV.

Indeed, there is downtime. But what is Dresden ignoring so he can look after his daughter? Guarantee that he hasn't been as involved as he could have been. Almost certainly things have slid a bit in some areas. His White Council relationship might have been better had he spent more time working with them. And Ebeneezer wasn't wrong in that it makes Maggie a target having her out in the open. I mean, Eb would know. He has clearly lost people because of their association with him. So has Harry, which is what Ebeneezer was trying to point out. I wouldn't be lured in by Jim too much here - it's part of what he is good at. Making the ground appear solid then ripping it out from under Dresden (and by extension the reader).

Michael is an almost literal paragon of virtue so isn't a great comparison to Harry - who clearly isn't much of a white knight. Michael also probably quite literally has the universe helping him along. Harry is much more the just getting by guy. That's what makes him a great character - it's far more real and relatable. And as far as I am aware, Michael never dealt with anything of the scale of conflict or level of problems Harry did. In fact, Michael even says as much to Harry in a conversation. He feels sorry that Harry has such terrible choices in front of him. Harry's fate (for want of a better word) is to be the guy who faces the Abyss and has to keep on going.

I think Apocalypse isn't a Hollywood feature that goes for 3 hours. It's a process. As both Nicodemus and Nemesis say, it's a state of mind. It literally an uncovering - a revelation. But one would have thought things would have kicked off enough after the events of BG for Harry to give it his all. Perhaps he doesn't understand the stakes, or realise the timeline (which even Ethniu made reference to - there's a whole WOJ about how multiple beings keep talking about how time is running out and know the 2 minute alarm has gone off, which I think after BG it might be the 1 minute alarm). But cataclysm has arrived and is guaranteed to get worse. Jim's choosing to draw it out for his own reasons (or so it appears) but make no mistake: the avalanche has started. We are just nowhere near the end of it all.

I agree, the BAT was meant to be when it all kicks off. Not sure why Jim accelerated the timeline here then. You can't deny that the events of BG would quite literally be the worst assault on American soil ever. That in itself would be bad enough, but the discovery of the supernatural out in the open would tip it over the edge. If Russia had caused that much damage to America then WW3 would have kicked off. We're just in the opening scenes of it. Titania even implies this when she talks to Mab for the first time in a millennia.

[Dina]

I completely agree with you.

[morriswalters]

Michael had a wife and Angels to watch over his family.  Harry has zero sane family.  Peace Talks shows exactly how it will happen each and every time.  There will be an obligatory, I must get Maggie out of harms way chapter.  It was dumb in Peace Talks and will never be less dumb going forward. And there is no way for Jim to duck on it.  He did it and he's stuck with it. And I don't think there will be a successful children's series out of it. Bluntly Zoo Day was wooden and stilted.

[Dina]

Yes.

[Walter the skull]

I enjoyed Zoo Day.  I like seeing the story from 3 different points of view, and Mouse is actually a great POV character.  Maggie needs to exist.  What else but his child being in danger would cause Harry to become the Winter Knight?  What else would make Harry willing to sacrifice Susan to destroy the Red Court? 

As for help with Maggie, he has the whole Carpenter family. 

What's going to be interesting is how will things work with Maggi's new step mom.

[Bad Alias]

If Michael made it work, Harry should be able to as well.

Which Michael alluded to in the first couple of chapters of GP.

Even though I don't mind Maggie, I actually agree in that I think the story might have been better off without her. Mostly because it has created this awful thing of Harry being like "I have to be a real Dad and be present and take her to every game of soccer" while the world is ending. It makes almost no sense and drags the story. And while I agree with Dresden's sentiment, I don't find it very believable considering what's going on. It's almost a you can have your cake and eat it type of thing. I personally think it would be better writing and a better story if Dresden has to choose one or the other and we get to see the consequences of it.

I think that probably has to do with a lot of real world propaganda, most directed at girls, that one can "have it all." There's just not enough hours in the day to "go to every soccer game" and be at the pinnacle of your field.

Peace Talks shows exactly how it will happen each and every time.  There will be an obligatory, I must get Maggie out of harms way chapter.  It was dumb in Peace Talks and will never be less dumb going forward. And there is no way for Jim to duck on it.

He could ship her off to boarding school right there in Chicago, which is kinda the choice everyone is implying he would have to make anyway. Also, Jim has said that's what Harry's going to do.

[morriswalters]

He could ship her off to boarding school right there in Chicago, which is kinda the choice everyone is implying he would have to make anyway. Also, Jim has said that's what Harry's going to do.

Let's remember what Jim has done to his child protagonists starting with Harry and Thomas.  He turns Thomas into a Vampire.  He puts Harry in the system and then gives him to Justin and forces him to fight his way out.  His mother was abused by Ebenezer. Molly was kidnapped and taken to Arctis Tor.  Maggie was kidnapped by the Reds and a whole family keeping her was dismembered by the Reds. And last but not least the Carpenter children have been attacked multiple times as recently as Skin Games. And now he is being pawned off to Lara.  I wouldn't eat any Turkey at that table during the Holidays. Grandpa is a one man death squad, step Mom eats people, and the Wicked Faeries get a seat at the table. Thanksgiving plan.  Snatch a drumstick and try not to get eaten.

Anyway I know I'm an outlier about this. But it is what it is.

[pcpoet]

speaking as a 55 year old man who never got married and never had kids. I love it when Butcher  writes about being father.  I am very aware that I am in a minority and my enjoyment comes from my desire to have been a parent at some point in my life.    I like it but story wise for the series it does not fit. years ago Mr Butcher said he wrote Susan out of Harrys  life because it created a trap to fall into with his writing. The trope of Susan being the damsel in distress that harry has to save every book she is in.  Maggie is the same sort of trap.

[Snark Knight]

The trope of Susan being the damsel in distress that harry has to save every book she is in.  Maggie is the same sort of trap.

Only in a specifically personal way in Changes. SG in a way, but Harry would have hauled ass as fast as he could if it was 'just' the entire Carpenter family and the archangel at risk of being murdered too. Otherwise it's been an extra dimension of not wanting the city to get blown up because his daughter is in it.

[TheCuriousFan]

Michael had a wife and Angels to watch over his family.  Harry has zero sane family.  Peace Talks shows exactly how it will happen each and every time.  There will be an obligatory, I must get Maggie out of harms way chapter.  It was dumb in Peace Talks and will never be less dumb going forward. And there is no way for Jim to duck on it.  He did it and he's stuck with it. And I don't think there will be a successful children's series out of it. Bluntly Zoo Day was wooden and stilted.

And this is why she'll be at St. Marks boarding school for most of the year.

[forumghost]

Only in a specifically personal way in Changes. SG in a way, but Harry would have hauled ass as fast as he could if it was 'just' the entire Carpenter family and the archangel at risk of being murdered too. Otherwise it's been an extra dimension of not wanting the city to get blown up because his daughter is in it.

Not SG "In a Way" The only reason Harry agreed to be a part of that was because Mab held the Parasite over Maggie head as a threat. (Incidentally, good job Heavenly retirement package. No use against mortals, no use against Spirits of Intellect, no use against mortals that have been given Formor upgrades (Listen) really, what are you even paid for?)