Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]

[The_Sibelis]

Except it is quite literally Angels in Nails/Swords versus Fallen Angels in Coins. Forces of Heaven versus the forces of Hell. A Microcosm of the great conflict between the two. But every win the Knights get against the Denarians seems to make things worse for Hell, and better for Heaven.

If you fight a soldier from another country in combat, you are not merely fighting that soldier. You are also in conflict with that country. It's not a separate thing. Unless you believe the Denarians have their own agenda separate from Hell's...

except that balance doesn't make sense at all. That's early readers saying," it's clearly summer vs Winter,l... except that it's actually not. That's just what we saw. Look at what we're discussing. Reality created by a god. That reality has balances inside it simply to be checks to keep the balance from going to the outsiders. If TWG made reality,  hell is not it's equivalent. Just like summer is not winters equal. It's just the check.
What you mean to say, is unless the church has its own agenda outside of the swords, which nic has implied is the case. 3 swords, three walkers of equal but opposite metaphysical connection.. the Denarians aren't even their real primary enemy. Hell nor the Denarians exist to be the Enemy. TWG champions free will, Lucifer counters that by not even believing in the reality of freedom. They balance. But Lucifer doesn't equal the power of TWG.

[Yuillegan]

except that balance doesn't make sense at all. That's early readers saying," it's clearly summer vs Winter,l... except that it's actually not. That's just what we saw. Look at what we're discussing. Reality created by a god. That reality has balances inside it simply to be checks to keep the balance from going to the outsiders. If TWG made reality,  hell is not it's equivalent. Just like summer is not winters equal. It's just the check.
What you mean to say, is unless the church has its own agenda outside of the swords, which nic has implied is the case. 3 swords, three walkers of equal but opposite metaphysical connection.. the Denarians aren't even their real primary enemy. Hell nor the Denarians exist to be the Enemy. TWG champions free will, Lucifer counters that by not even believing in the reality of freedom. They balance. But Lucifer doesn't equal the power of TWG.

I don't think that Lucifer is TWGs equal in power. But he's certainly more free to act, if the rules of the Dresden Files are upheld. More power = less ability to act. And if anything, Lucifer clearly isn't against Freedom or Free Will. He rebelled and so clearly had some measure of it. Jim has even said as much. If he didn't believe in Free Will he wouldn't have rebelled. It's more accurate I think that the theory might be that Lucifer just doesn't believe TWG is going about things the right way. Perhaps he believes he can do better. Jim has said Lucifer and TWG are having an argument about Reality, and I suspect the crux of it is that mortals have limitless Free Will. Perhaps Lucifer thinks that's too dangerous or unfair. The real question is why TWG thinks it isn't. Why do we need Free Will? Why can't the Angels or other powerful entities have it? Is it fair that only mortals have it?

Mab gives it away a little in BG. She says Love and Hate are not opposite forces, but the same force in opposite directions. Hellfire and Soulfire. Heaven and Hell. She says reason is the opposite of Hate/Love. But I don't know that she is right there either. Reason is a product of order, and therefore really and opposite of chaos. Chaos isn't evil. Order isn't good. They are just what they are.

The Church is hardly the representative anymore (at least in the Dresden universe) of TWG and his forces. There's so many for a start, so many interpretations. Most of them are about as connected as anyone else is. The Knights of the Cross however, are much more connected. They are the most prominent agents in the mortal world, armed with weapons coated in the blood (no insignificant thing) of TWG's own mortal avatar. The are given direct orders from TWG himself, as per Day One. So while I am sure the Church have their own agenda separate from the Knights, it's not all that relevant. It might even be serving more insidious agendas.

Three Angels against 30 Fallen might not seem like a balanced fight, but it isn't just that. It's 3 Angels PLUS the Blood of Christ. And they work together. The Denarians just as often betray each other as work together, and they have no boost from TWG or even Lucifer (as far as we know). That's why the Denarians often lose, they are often taken out 3 on one or even by each other. And it really comes down to the fact that when the Knights are aligned with their purpose, they are unstoppable. The Denarians have betrayed their true purpose, and therefore their foundation is weak.

What I think you might be getting at is that the main fight is Creation versus Outside. The Fae as a whole are from Reality and therefore are against Outside. So are both Heaven and Hell. Doesn't mean that some beings haven't thrown their lot in with the Outsiders - as is clearly the case with the Black Council etc. But Winter and Summer are still opposites within Reality. That doesn't change either. That's part of their point too.

If the Swords, and the Nails by extension, were against the Outside as their true purpose (and the Walkers by extension) wouldn't they have been involved in the original fight where the Outsiders were kicked out or the Walkers be involved in the Crucifixion? No. The Crucifixion was a rebalancing of the board per WOJ, and only happened a relatively short time ago in respect to the age of the Universe. The Outsiders seem to have been around since before Creation. It's a much older conflict. Besides, the Walkers are Archangel level. If they have opposites it's the Archangel's themselves.

[The_Sibelis]

Might wanna go reread the aura created to contain ivy using Lucifer's power...
And as a matter of fact I do think the walkers were involved in the crucifixion, but that's not really the point. And we don't know what kinda grace the swords have, could be they're archangel level. More importantly though, the swords work against outsiders, and they're vulnerable to them at the same time. Swords don't meet walkers, because that's dangerous to the sword. If love and hate are the same, so are fear and hope and despair and faith. The walkers would then have the same metaphysics as the swords as far as where their power comes from. True opposites, two sides to the same coin... Equals.

[TheCuriousFan]

Hmm. While I have always felt there was an Outsider connection to the White Court (and all the Vampires - this is all but confirmed in BG), I am not sure about whether they are the opposition as such to Heaven. Jim seems to work on the D&D four poles (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil) with his own twist. By using that rather crude format we must assume Heaven is Lawful Good, Hell is Lawful Evil, the Outsiders are Chaotic Evil and the Fae are Chaotic Good (roughly). My point is that if the Houses of the White Courts are the opposites of the Swords, then the Outsiders are less likely to be the sponsors of the White Court. It would indicate their origins lie in the Infernal realms. Which is certainly possible. I say this as the Swords seem to be most seriously opposed to Hell and more specifically the Denarians. Everything else is just extra.

But if the White Court is related in some way to the Outsiders then it's quite plausible that each house has a patron of one of the Walkers. Well, the three main houses anyway. There are several smaller houses who would perhaps have lesser Outsiders as patrons.

I very much like the comparisons made to each of the Walker from their psychic weapons of choice. I do feel it would be more thematic if Behind was related most to Love, as he is the greatest of the Walkers (if memory serves) and Love is the greatest of the Virtues (at least in some interpretations but more importantly in Jim's novels).

Ah, so you think Drakul's starborn+black court connections are supposed to hint at that too?

[Yuillegan]

Ah, so you think Drakul's starborn+black court connections are supposed to hint at that too?

Absolutely! The starborn's literally exist to wield power over Outsiders (at least in part) and Drakul is a starborn. He also seems to know what the real game is and is determined to win. But in general, every single Court of Vampires has had some association with Outsiders. The Reds and Whites both have summoned them. We haven't seen the Black Court summon any Outsiders but Black Court activity has been associated with Outsiders, and many of their darker traits seem to be linked. But also Drakul's will attack is just the same as the Lords of the Outer Night, but greater than all of them.

Might wanna go reread the aura created to contain ivy using Lucifer's power...
And as a matter of fact I do think the walkers were involved in the crucifixion, but that's not really the point. And we don't know what kinda grace the swords have, could be they're archangel level. More importantly though, the swords work against outsiders, and they're vulnerable to them at the same time. Swords don't meet walkers, because that's dangerous to the sword. If love and hate are the same, so are fear and hope and despair and faith. The walkers would then have the same metaphysics as the swords as far as where their power comes from. True opposites, two sides to the same coin... Equals.

Aura? Not sure what you mean. The Hellfire beams used to create the Signs were literally powered by Hell. Harry thought in SmF and in BG that it was Lucifer himself doing it, but Harry is an unreliable narrator and Jim contradicts this in a recent WOJ and says it was more likely one of Lucifer's subsidiaries rather than the CEO himself. The pentagram was also Infernal in origin...so not sure what you mean here.

I'd love to hear your theories on how the Walkers were involved in the Crucifixion. That's an interesting idea - but I haven't seen any hints suggesting that myself or heard any theories about it. Doubt the Swords have Archangel power behind them, and certainly not bound within them. The Archangels are too important to the functioning of Creation to be trapped in a Nail in a single universe. Even throughout the multiverse. And there are FOUR Archangels in Jim's mythos: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel. Lucifer is one too...but he also isn't an Angel exactly. He isn't God's messenger so the term is wrong. But his power doesn't appear to be lessened. Anyway, Michael (the Archangel) actually gave Esperacchius to Sanya. So he could hardly be doing that while also in a Sword. Would defeat the purpose of binding an Angel into an object if they could also be anywhere else they liked.

I don't remember anything about the Swords being vulnerable to the Walkers more-so than any other being. The Swords are vulnerable to human choice, specifically the Choice to use them against their purpose. Death of innocents, specifically innocent blood. Nicodemus included, technically, if he is giving up willingly. An act of Hate destroys Amoracchius, an act of Despair destroys Esperacchius, an act of Treachery/Faithlessness destroys Fidelacchius. Killing an innocent or defenceless person asking for mercy would be any of these. But I don't see how the Walkers could destroy them on their own. The only person we have seen capable of doing it is Nicodemus via manipulation. Really, it's the wielder who has the power. It's their choice in the end. If the Swords were able to be destroyed by the Outsiders I suspect it would have been done already and Michael wouldn't have been able to help out against them.

[The_Sibelis]

(okay... but if I ramble, just remember, you asked lol) The aura... The... Substance of the binding. How it was described via a channeling. I'll have to find my book later today and reread it. Idk, that does throw a wrench in the actual story, as Uriel could intervene with giving Harry soul fire based on Lucifer's power being spent on earth too. I felt he pretty much confirmed that when he interrupted Harry's rant as jake the janitor.
The walkers making the swords vulnerable came from an old theory here... Something about how they're never around at the same time. An if Michael could be in two places at once depends on if someone else cheated first, Lasciel was supposed to be stuck in a coin bit somehow managed to be the whisper that pushed Harry to suicide in CH, so it's not entirely unprecedented for them to have options.
Note though that I see a difference between breaking the sword and actually unmaking it. Nic broke a sword, Mavra was trying to unmake it entirely.. which given that the swords have angels.. I compare it to Michael having the possibility of making Uriel Fall. If they misuse it it won't just break, it'll mess up the jumbo jet inside the swords.
Which brings me to how I think the swords are connected to the walkers. We know through Woj the swords existed before the crucifixion. But what about the nails? They had similar power before the crucifixion, so perhaps the nails were a different part of the equation elsewhere. I think they were basically the weapons of the horsemen of the apocalypse.(which is slightly skewed now until a 4th walker actually appears, I know. It doesn't match as perfectly atm, but I think it will, in the end). Looking at the knights and Uriel, I feel like the three swords are the horsemen for our era, (which walkers with beasts of burden, ala' human hosts, are horsemen. It's a Jim pun) with Uriel being death, the one who utilizes all three. They're champions of Fate, which is currently set at free will. So previous to the crucifixion I think they weren't working for the good side, and these previous identities are what became the walkers. I think Jim mixed Nortia, Nemesis' etruscan version and her association with nails that pin down the fate of humanity with the nails of the cross. TWC saved us from our fate by dying for us after all.
Which actually mixes directly with how I think the vampire courts are associated with outsiders... There are seven courts, of that Jim was specific, but he only bothered to really flesh out 3-4. That seems arbitrary to have a specific number but not utilize them, unless he had the number for a metaphysical reason. Sin was said to be an unbalanced force in the universe. If that's true then the 7 courts are manifestations of the seven deadly sins. Before TWC took our sins, they were what Lucifer used as the adversary, the unbalanced forces in the universe he could act through. This is based on the order of the kabbalah, Lucifer used to be the adversary before he fell.(the only time he acts in this role in the bible is Job) at which point his wife, Lilith took his role.
To me, every time the cycle repeats itself whatever force is currently attacking, whichever identity they're using, finds its place on the inside thereby denying them it's future use. Mab is a great example of this, in Odin's time they fought Jotuns. Now Mab made an identity for that force inside reality.(Harry's huge apartment was a clue imo, of the origins of her power/stronghold) Lucifer and sin used to be an unbalanced force, then hell was brought into the NN as part of reality.(which, is partly the idea of a prison is made in each cycle too)
The threat from the walkers, well, if they're using our own forces of creation against us, there's only a few things it could be, Magic, or they've figured out how to reverse the metaphorical coin and access both sides.(and being vulnerable to your own power is pretty standard in the DF) Nemesis using Thomas's love against him is a good example of that... And I confess... I think butters getting with two women is perhaps another example.. Lea thought having true love protection would protect her from,"that which stalks us all." But it didn't.
Mmmm, lost my thread, so I'll stop there lol.
Okay little more to ramble about. The 'powers' of the horsemen have been seen and gave their own avatar in the DF. When Nic does the plague curse he says he's on a deadline, thinking it was a timed event that was going to manifest one of the walkers power. In this case whomever used to be pestilence. Which ties into what I think the purpose of the denarians is to take up the space of the walkers and utilize the power they had so that they can't have it back.
The current order of Gods have the same aspects but they're broken down into different elements. 4 beings of relative free will, the two knights and the two kings. EK for instance would likely be a reflection of conquest, by beast and sword. Molly mirrors the WL from being trained by Lea to use fear as a weapon (also she was taught how to use fear to take free will earlier, they were trying to make her a reflection for fearbringer) so the winter court is likely broken down from fearbringer mainly. I think the four walkers(I know, only three, but wait and see..) plus the judge are the 5 main reaccuring archatypes seen through out the pantheons, and possibly the 5 primary starborn. Lachesis is the chooser, nemesis the chooser of Fate, Gard the chooser of the slain... And I don't know if you noticed but Murphy was awfully pushy... And she actually killed a least two nemfected characters of the top of my head, Denton and Maeve. Even her name is suspect, Murphy and Murphy's law are relative... Especially if I add in the theory of where magic comes from...
.... Eg gads what I wouldn't do to get some off the record conversation with Jim about some of this stuff... He goes deeeeeeep in the rabbit hole on some things.

[Griffyn612]

I do feel it would be more thematic if Behind was related most to Love, as he is the greatest of the Walkers (if memory serves) and Love is the greatest of the Virtues (at least in some interpretations but more importantly in Jim's novels).

Behind is the most *potent*, not necessarily the greatest/strongest. Beside seems to be the brains, possibly the longest lasting, and potentially the greatest/strongest in terms of impact. Behind is just potent in that he can act directly against humans without a host.

[Yuillegan]

Behind is the most *potent*, not necessarily the greatest/strongest. Beside seems to be the brains, possibly the longest lasting, and potentially the greatest/strongest in terms of impact. Behind is just potent in that he can act directly against humans without a host.

Potent meaning powerful...and technically the only one that Jim said could end universes. But I see you're point. I'd argue the Beside is the most dangerous currently, based on what he has achieved. In terms of magical muscle I suspect it's still Behind. Behind is the Langtry to Beside's Rashid, to me. Before is a bit of an unknown quantity. Didn't seem all that big and bad, but Harry seemed to think he could eat Mab alive and he has got closer to causing the end of the world (as far as we know) than any of the others. So that's something.

Sibelis - I did ask, so that's on me 
1) Still not totally clear on the aura. My best guess is you are referring to the properties associated with the design of the Pentagram - namely the Power without Restraint pentagram thing. The same symbol that Kemmler and his acolytes used. Could be a combination of both Outsider and Infernal power? Seems odd though...I feel like they wouldn't work together really. If both Lucifer and Uriel actually got subordinates to do their work (e.g. Lucifer asks a Duke of the Fallen to actually power the Sign and Uriel asks one of his Angel chiefs of equivalent rank) then it works.
2) It is interesting they are never around at the same time, as far as I am aware. I suspect that's more to do with the Swords being more involved in the War against Heaven than against the Outsiders. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't work though...
3) Did the Swords exist before Crucifixion? I haven't seen that WOJ, but surely that would only apply to Kusanagi (Fidelacchius). The others...I would be surprised by. Maybe they were great swords already that got a pretty special power boost. I am sure the Angels were not inside the Swords until there were Fallen in the Coins. And I highly doubt the Swords (assuming they did exist prior to the Crucifixion) would be stronger than after they got Angels placed in them PLUS the Nails from the Cross and the blood of the Redeemer.
4) Pretty sure Mother Winter is implied to be the Four Horsemen, or at least control them. Mother Summer has Wormwood amongst her diseases (one of the things that kicks off Revelations) and MW has four sets of teeth (Pearly White, Rotted, Serrated and pointed, and Metal). Each has been guessed at as one of the Four Horsemen (White = Death, Rotted = Plague, Serrated = Famine, Metal = War) or some variation. One even is that MW herself is the Fourth Horsemen and these are merely the ways in which Death can kill (Sword, Plague, Famine and Wild Beast).
5) Not sure that I can see He Who Walks Beside as the current Nemesis of which Lucifer was first. Pretty sure Lucifer is still the Adversary (at least of God, if not Man).
6) We're in the rabbit hole alright  I doubt Jim would give any of us much useful info. But I agree it would be rather amazing to discuss some of the big stuff with him. Still though, guess we will have to read on to find out!

[The_Sibelis]

3 as far as I remember they all existed before hand? I just read that Woj recently, it's in eldest gruffs 4th holy sword theory in the reference section.
4 mother winter ate them. You also see Lachesis' loom in the corner of her cottage in SK, but it's gone later.. smh, that just reminded me of an old theory I had on MW and the Old ones I hadn't thought about in years... I replaced it with a different one.. but the idea was whatever MW unmakes by eating is contained in her, she ate the horsemen but kept the teeth as their mantles basically.
5 no, no. The Adversary is a literal role in the bible, Lucifer used to occupy it before he became the Satan. The Adversary is a role, that's why Mab can say it aloud, but not Nemesis. A name. It stood out to me as soon as she said it so I started looking into it more back in the day. I was already somewhat familiar with the Adversary... Job is one of my favorite stories..

[Yuillegan]

3 as far as I remember they all existed before hand? I just read that Woj recently, it's in eldest gruffs 4th holy sword theory in the reference section.
4 mother winter ate them. You also see Lachesis' loom in the corner of her cottage in SK, but it's gone later.. smh, that just reminded me of an old theory I had on MW and the Old ones I hadn't thought about in years... I replaced it with a different one.. but the idea was whatever MW unmakes by eating is contained in her, she ate the horsemen but kept the teeth as their mantles basically.
5 no, no. The Adversary is a literal role in the bible, Lucifer used to occupy it before he became the Satan. The Adversary is a role, that's why Mab can say it aloud, but not Nemesis. A name. It stood out to me as soon as she said it so I started looking into it more back in the day. I was already somewhat familiar with the Adversary... Job is one of my favorite stories..

I remember that WOJ - it doesn't actually say all the Swords existed prior to Crucifixion, just Kusanagi. It more goes into Jim's whole thing about Names, Mantles, Ideas etc being important. Fidelacchius is the spiritual successor to Kusangi, and inheritor of the ideas around it. It even contains some of the metal from that Sword. But they are not actually the same sword. No more than Narsil and Anduril in Lord of the Rings are.

Mother Winter ate the Four Horsemen? You are what you eat I suppose.

5 - You have conflated two things. You're taking the moniker "The Adversary" and assume it meant the role in the Bible. It does not. It's quite clear that Nemesis, the Walker (He Who Walks Behind), is the Adversary of the Fae. Not the Adversary in the Bible. Lucifer is his own being. Hasn't stopped being the Adversary of Heaven, as far as anything I have read. Particularly in-universe. Two Adversaries, two different conflicts.

[The_Sibelis]

5 connected not conflated. And yes he did stop being the Adversary in heaven. Those weren't random theory, they were based in literal bible scripture. The Adversary wasn't the same as being the enemy. The Adversary in particular was there to challenge the status quo, and could act in cosmic unbalance. In Job he's literally still in heaven questioning why God gave Job so much and trying to say if it was taken from him he wouldn't keep his faith. Can't sit at gods right hand from hell. Much as Nemesis gets to act when the fae courts are unbalanced. In the Jewish kabbalah(the order of seraphim specifically) he was literally the dark aeon of our reality Gaia, then the whole coming of the christ happened.

How can Kusanagi be a Sword of the Cross when it predates the crucifixion?
Because the Swords are ideas and symbols as much as they are physical objects–maybe even more so. Kusanagi isn’t the original Kusanagi, Exaclibur isn’t the original Excalibur, etc. But their title, their /idea/ has been passed down from one generation to the next, much as the names of warships are passed down to the next generation of ships, with the new ship inheriting the titles, victories, and traditions of its forbears. The nails are passed on from one sword to the next, bringing bits of the metal of each sword that came before.

they asked about kusanagi and he answered with a plural in swords. All the swords are ideas. Not just kusanagi.