Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]

[The_Sibelis]

not sure willpower is an emotion

I am, harry literally described it  as such when talking about dark magic recently. I hate not having a hard copy of PT, cause I'm thinking it was in there.. "blank" are also emotions, though subtler and "blank" 🤔

[Mira]

By the way such alternative whampires could be quite cool as very dark psychic monsters - if they can feed of you it means you are basically unloved and unloving. Dark place to go.

Which basically fits how both the White Court and the Red Court feed.  While I get that the Red Court didn't feed off of emotion like the White Court does, still they can be repelled by an article representing the faith of the would be victim.  Bianca was repelled by Harry's mother's pentacle, which not only represented his faith in his magic, but her love in leaving it to him.  At least in Storm Front, Harry alludes to feeling her love for him though the pentacle.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I am, harry literally described it  as such when talking about dark magic recently. I hate not having a hard copy of PT, cause I'm thinking it was in there.. "blank" are also emotions, though subtler and "blank"

If you have quote I shall welcome it - I scanned PT epub for all references to emotions and neither fits.
Willpower is ability to control own emotions, not emotion on itself IMHO.

I mean there can be feeling (not emotion) of power, which can be addicting pleasure of Dark Magic - but it's not emotion. Pleasure is feeling - not emotion.

Which basically fits how both the White Court and the Red Court feed.  While I get that the Red Court didn't feed off of emotion like the White Court does, still they can be repelled by an article representing the faith of the would be victim.  Bianca was repelled by Harry's mother's pentacle, which not only represented his faith in his magic, but her love in leaving it to him.  At least in Storm Front, Harry alludes to feeling her love for him though the pentacle.

Indeed. And it was sort of only subjective but really honest Faith - enough to repel Reds.
TBH I have sort of feeling it was early draft about how vampires works - because it does not fits well with Red Court for me - as they are basically more bestial and almost werebatish beings implying primal spirits - faith seems like something more suited for Dresden Blacks.

[Mira]

Indeed. And it was sort of only subjective but really honest Faith - enough to repel Reds.
TBH I have sort of feeling it was early draft about how vampires works - because it does not fits well with Red Court for me - as they are basically more bestial and almost werebatish beings implying primal spirits - faith seems like something more suited for Dresden Blacks.

Yet so far garlic seems to have more effect on Black vamps than articles of faith.  Though I agree with you about the Reds, yet it was Harry's pentacle that saved him from Bianca.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Yet so far garlic seems to have more effect on Black vamps than articles of faith.  Though I agree with you about the Reds, yet it was Harry's pentacle that saved him from Bianca.

I know. I think if Jim would re-write books 1 and 2 after writing 3, he would shift it a bit.
I kinda like that Reds are vampires that are repelled - by pure physical violence, as they are most physical beings.
(Swords two because bat!demon rather does not like presence of angel, but not necessary a mortal faith)

[The_Sibelis]

@woody
Should have scanned for willpower.. but if you can't find harry explaining dark magic somewhere in 17 books...
And feeling not emotion?!? That does not compute... Feelings are emotional, that feeling of power would be considered things like pride, gloating, smugness, that heady sense if purpose before the kill, ect. Plenty of adjectives to apply to it. But if you wanna break it down, it creates euphoria and happiness, if you need an emotion that's recognizable to you.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Well yes there are many feelings associated - but feeling of pride, feeling of pleasure coming from power are not the same as willpower.
Willpower is more like mental endurance, mental HP of mind/soul/spirit. It's not a feeling on it's own.
Mab has tremendous willpower and she mostly (not totally) phased out of all emotion thing.

[The_Sibelis]

Well yes there are many feelings associated - but feeling of pride, feeling of pleasure coming from power are not the same as willpower

I was not comparing them in such a manor, but showing contrast for dark magic and it's emotional states.
By your example, willpower is an overpowering of base emotion.

[Mira]

I was not comparing them in such a manor, but showing contrast for dark magic and it's emotional states.
By your example, willpower is an overpowering of base emotion.

I don't think so, I think willpower is the basest of all emotions and can override all others for good or ill depending on what it is.  It is a true two edged sword.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

By your example, willpower is an overpowering of base emotion.

Yes. Willpower is something that allows you to enforce your will and reason on emotions, in wizard case more widely - on emotions but also on energies of uniwerse (as we know those as simmilar - as aura of emotion in Battle Ground allow Dresden to overcharge his spells.)
But I do not see as emotion on itself. I see it as faculty. Like senses are faculties of perception - you see or hear something. Sight of beauty or sound of shagnasty laugh can cause emotions but it's secondary effect to perception itself.

[Mira]

Yes. Willpower is something that allows you to enforce your will and reason on emotions, in wizard case more widely - on emotions but also on energies of uniwerse (as we know those as simmilar - as aura of emotion in Battle Ground allow Dresden to overcharge his spells.)
But I do not see as emotion on itself. I see it as faculty. Like senses are faculties of perception - you see or hear something. Sight of beauty or sound of shagnasty laugh can cause emotions but it's secondary effect to perception itself.

Like I said for good or ill, because will power can close one's mind to the truth as well as hold one to the truth.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Like I said for good or ill, because will power can close one's mind to the truth as well as hold one to the truth.

Well of course, yes.

[Yuillegan]

Drawing comparisons. Others have said these before, but I wanted to list them to try to spur new lines of thought.

Swords of the Cross

• Faith
• Hope
• Love

White Court Houses

• Fear
• Despair
• Lust

Walkers

• Behind
• “Neither fear nor pain sway you..."
• My head was full of pain and fear.
• Before
• I could feel a horrible, hopeless weight...
• The psychic assault of despair that Sharkface had sent into my head evaporated...
• Beside - Doesn't seem to use lust. Uses desire or twisted love to seduce and corrupt?
• Twists a man's love of family into ambition (per Lily).
• Twists Denton's love of law and order into rage.
• Twists Aurora's love of life into a murderous plot to spare lives.
• Twists Maeve's love of her mother into spite.
• Twists Justine and Thomas's love into a reason to betray and kill.

Hmm. While I have always felt there was an Outsider connection to the White Court (and all the Vampires - this is all but confirmed in BG), I am not sure about whether they are the opposition as such to Heaven. Jim seems to work on the D&D four poles (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil) with his own twist. By using that rather crude format we must assume Heaven is Lawful Good, Hell is Lawful Evil, the Outsiders are Chaotic Evil and the Fae are Chaotic Good (roughly). My point is that if the Houses of the White Courts are the opposites of the Swords, then the Outsiders are less likely to be the sponsors of the White Court. It would indicate their origins lie in the Infernal realms. Which is certainly possible. I say this as the Swords seem to be most seriously opposed to Hell and more specifically the Denarians. Everything else is just extra.

But if the White Court is related in some way to the Outsiders then it's quite plausible that each house has a patron of one of the Walkers. Well, the three main houses anyway. There are several smaller houses who would perhaps have lesser Outsiders as patrons.

I very much like the comparisons made to each of the Walker from their psychic weapons of choice. I do feel it would be more thematic if Behind was related most to Love, as he is the greatest of the Walkers (if memory serves) and Love is the greatest of the Virtues (at least in some interpretations but more importantly in Jim's novels).

[The_Sibelis]

Like I said for good or ill, because will power can close one's mind to the truth as well as hold one to the truth.

that's not really will power than is it? Stubbornness or determination then.

It would indicate their origins lie in the Infernal realms. Which is certainly possible. I say this as the Swords seem to be most seriously opposed to Hell and more specifically the Denarians. Everything else is just extra

I disagree entirely. Hell is just extra. They were not originally purposed to fight hell specifically. The denarians are placeholders. Just as summer must balance winter, hell exists to balance heaven. When that balance is skewed it messes up reality.

[Yuillegan]

I disagree entirely. Hell is just extra. They were not originally purposed to fight hell specifically. The denarians are placeholders. Just as summer must balance winter, hell exists to balance heaven. When that balance is skewed it messes up reality.

Except it is quite literally Angels in Nails/Swords versus Fallen Angels in Coins. Forces of Heaven versus the forces of Hell. A Microcosm of the great conflict between the two. But every win the Knights get against the Denarians seems to make things worse for Hell, and better for Heaven.

If you fight a soldier from another country in combat, you are not merely fighting that soldier. You are also in conflict with that country. It's not a separate thing. Unless you believe the Denarians have their own agenda separate from Hell's...