Author Topic: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]  (Read 8523 times)

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 23, 2020, 11:24:05 PM »
Drawing comparisons. Others have said these before, but I wanted to list them to try to spur new lines of thought.

Swords of the Cross
  • Faith
  • Hope
  • Love

White Court Houses
  • Fear
  • Despair
  • Lust

Walkers
  • Behind
    • “Neither fear nor pain sway you..."
    • My head was full of pain and fear.
  • Before
    • I could feel a horrible, hopeless weight...
    • The psychic assault of despair that Sharkface had sent into my head evaporated...
  • Beside - Doesn't seem to use lust. Uses desire or twisted love to seduce and corrupt?
    • Twists a man's love of family into ambition (per Lily).
    • Twists Denton's love of law and order into rage.
    • Twists Aurora's love of life into a murderous plot to spare lives.
    • Twists Maeve's love of her mother into spite.
    • Twists Justine and Thomas's love into a reason to betray and kill.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 235
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2020, 03:05:41 AM »
Well I'm kinda all for White Court being agenda of Outsiders, so count me in.

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 06:40:58 AM »
Not really a new thought, but I've been thinking that stars and stones refers to mortals becoming new versions of old deity (angelic to be precise) like how heros of old were supposed to go into the stars.. and those three, are the primary ones(though I believe there are five actually, from the scene in Changes when Harry becomes WK, five stars like a necklace on mother night) the reference of hate and love being the same force in opposite directions was a good example. (which I believe behind is hatred, not pain or fear. He projected hatred and self loathing in GS, it's the core of his essence) nemesis I think is something else, or something MORE maybe, still expect a 4th walker to show up... Though nemesis might qualify as despair instead. That's a thread most of her infected seem to share as well in the above list. They hit the end of the road on doubt and lost it. I've noticed the renditions of some deity also reflect the same traits. Molly becoming WL after being trained to use fear as a weapon for instance..
The swords and the walkers share a connection for sure though... It could be as simple as them being missing aspects of them. If love and hatred are the same force then the sword of love is missing part of what it should be. That part is manifesting with the walkers. Perhaps that aspect was literally killed off somehow and now they're trying to return. They seek to create/return to balance. The denarians are actually a false balance. They're there to take up the space nemesis tries to occupy. Beside repeating the same line as Nic does not surprise me. Nic is probably one of the only ones who know what the score really is on what the denarians do. They create mini apocalypti to prevent a build up in one spot.
Im starting to loose the thread right now so I'll cut myself off here and ramble on more later lol.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 235
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 02:53:18 PM »
TBH Stars and Stones for me points to something a'la Stonehenge.

Astrology, druidism, human sacrifice.

Quote
It could be as simple as them being missing aspects of them. If love and hatred are the same force then the sword of love is missing part of what it should be.

It's not really. Love as a Virtue is different force than love as part of emotional spectrum - that can be used by titans, wizards, fae to empower their spells. They coincide - but ultimately are not the same.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 02:55:00 PM by Wicked Woodpecker of West »

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 07:17:46 PM »
It's not really. Love as a Virtue is different force than love as part of emotional spectrum - that can be used by titans, wizards, fae to empower their spells. They coincide - but ultimately are not the same.
in the DF virtue and emotion are not mutually exclusive. They're the same thing in the DF, don't like it, argue with Jim on that one, not me..

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2020, 07:35:07 PM »
in the DF virtue and emotion are not mutually exclusive. They're the same thing in the DF, don't like it, argue with Jim on that one, not me..

  Yeah, fine line between ordinary making love/lust, which brings pleasure upon which the White Court feeds, and true love.  I think true love for a White Court Vamp is like Daedalus flying too close to the sun, the intensity of it literally burns them.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 235
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2020, 09:53:21 PM »
Quote
in the DF virtue and emotion are not mutually exclusive. They're the same thing in the DF, don't like it, argue with Jim on that one, not me..

Are they? There is really no specific data I've seen for instance connecting True Love fenomena which is anathema to lust-feeding whampires with Love as power that empoweres or guides Ammorachius. Maybe they are, maybe not, depends how Jim is versed on fact that English term love meant like 5 different nouns in Greek.

Quote
  Yeah, fine line between ordinary making love/lust, which brings pleasure upon which the White Court feeds, and true love.  I think true love for a White Court Vamp is like Daedalus flying too close to the sun, the intensity of it literally burns them.

Psychic aura of fidelity and sacrificial love can simply repel lust-feeders just like true courage repells Malvoras.
Still not necessary Celestial power withing swords, more concentrated psychic energy opposed to what whampire is trying to do with your brain, enough to make you immune,.

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2020, 12:35:12 AM »
Quote
Are they? There is really no specific data I've seen for instance connecting True Love fenomena which is anathema to lust-feeding whampires with Love as power that empoweres or guides Ammorachius.
I didn't specify true love... But love as the power that empowers ammorachius says it all. It's a virtue attached to and empowered by an emotional state or mindset.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2020, 06:17:34 AM »
I didn't specify true love... But love as the power that empowers ammorachius says it all. It's a virtue attached to and empowered by an emotional state or mindset.

But true love is in the same category as the love that empowers Ammorachius.  Or rather there is no difference.

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 08:56:59 AM »
But true love is in the same category as the love that empowers Ammorachius.  Or rather there is no difference.
is it? How do you know?
I still see no difference between love as an emotion and love as a force of virtue, heck, as a force of creation itself for that matter. After all, it was the sacrifice Lash made, which one can easily define as selfless love, that allowed the creation of Bonnie.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2020, 11:59:29 AM »
is it? How do you know?
I still see no difference between love as an emotion and love as a force of virtue, heck, as a force of creation itself for that matter. After all, it was the sacrifice Lash made, which one can easily define as selfless love, that allowed the creation of Bonnie.

I think you just said it all yourself, all of the above is true love.  Sex has nothing to do with true love.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 235
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2020, 02:10:49 PM »
Quote
I still see no difference between love as an emotion and love as a force of virtue, heck, as a force of creation itself for that matter.

I'm not sure about Dresden-verse mechanics, but IRL I can totally see practicing virtue of love without any backup from your own emotions.
Not to mention - virtue of love as describe by Paul in his hymn, is in Greek different word than love in romantic, erotic, friendship or paternal sense. Each of those have separate words for it. Paul forged basically own neologism - agape - to show it's not the same thing.
Most of languages around unfortunately have poorer vocabulary than Koine Greek - that's why Latin stuck basically with two - amor and caritas (and caritas was chosen as translation of agape - TBH contrary to what Butcher used.) But definitely in Christianity virtue of love is closer to charity than to all this emotional loves around.

Quote
But true love is in the same category as the love that empowers Ammorachius.  Or rather there is no difference.

It may be or not. For me it's something of smaller scale definitely. But then I'm staunch antiromantic, so I have my biases :P



Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24350
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2020, 03:17:16 PM »
Quote
It may be or not. For me it's something of smaller scale definitely. But then I'm staunch antiromantic, so I have my biases

It isn't about romance, think of the quote,

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not die but have eternal life."

That about sums up the three Holy Swords doesn't it?  Love, Faith, and Hope, that is also what true love is about. 

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2020, 07:37:53 PM »
Quote
I'm not sure about Dresden-verse mechanics, but IRL I can totally see practicing virtue of love without any backup from your own emotions.
willpower is an emotion too, so chaste love would be as well. It's not overpowering emotional content that makes it or breaks it.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 235
    • View Profile
Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2020, 01:41:14 AM »
I'm not sure willpower is an emotion. It's more a faculty of self, like mental endurance. Within DF it may be or not sign of using free will.

Quote
It isn't about romance, think of the quote,

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not die but have eternal life."

That about sums up the three Holy Swords doesn't it?  Love, Faith, and Hope, that is also what true love is about.

Indeed. Sacrifical love is closer. Agape. Caritas.
But then mechanics of True Love against whampires suggest it's different set of things. Like relation between God and world, Jesus and humanity was never mutual relation of equals (as True Love is according to Jim). If anything it's more comparable to parent protecting children (who cannot do anything to protect father) and parental love as WOJ teaches do jackshit against whampires (otherwise whampires would be burned way more often I think).

By the way such alternative whampires could be quite cool as very dark psychic monsters - if they can feed of you it means you are basically unloved and unloving. Dark place to go.