Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Well if his angels cannot do much without destroying galaxy or two...

[Bad Alias]

I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic.

The only thing I recall Jim saying is he was from the "fun" end of fundamentalism spectrum. Catholics are not typically considered fundamentalists, so he probably wasn't Catholic.

We don't know if Mac's significance changed as he wrote, like Butters' did.

I think Mac was important pretty early on. He's constantly described as fitting in the same age range. That was the first thing I noticed that made me think something was up with him.

But I also swear that I saw or heard a WoJ (that I have been unable to find, so it's not supported) that Uriel *believes* he was present at the creation of everything, but that doesn't make it *true*. The implication seemed to be that Uriel is shaped, even beyond his own awareness, by what human religion established for him and the other angels. 

I don't know if that was JB hedging to avoid offending those with different beliefs, or if it was an early mental draft to what he was developing for the story, or if that's an accurate description of the Dresdenverse.

I recall Jim saying something like the Creator could have just retconned reality to make Himself the Creator and how would anyone know the difference. For the italicized portion, I feel like that was what Jim was doing, but that wouldn't make the bolded portion false either.

And personally while I support totally supes getting high and mighty on spiritual or psychic power of faith of believers, I'm really tired of trope that gods/titans/faeries are just some manifestations of human belief and do not exist really beyond that.

I think it's played a little different in the DF.

It could be that it's all about will. We've seen older beings with will so powerful that it flattens mortals because the will of a few (or maybe hundreds) of mortals can't compare, but the problem for these older beings is that there are billions of mortals. When the will of a billion mortals is that you're just a story, it probably has an affect on you. When you have a bunch of mortals devoted to you being all powerful or just really powerful, that also probably has an affect on you.

Or it could just be that mortal knowledge anchors these beings to reality. (I think your "supernatural beings do not change their natures" WoJ supports this one).

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

The only thing I recall Jim saying is he was from the "fun" end of fundamentalism spectrum. Catholics are not typically considered fundamentalists, so he probably wasn't Catholic.

I'm quite sure he was raised Baptist.

I recall Jim saying something like the Creator could have just retconned reality to make Himself the Creator and how would anyone know the difference. For the italicized portion, I feel like that was what Jim was doing, but that wouldn't make the bolded portion false either.

OK... but then how it worked compared to what you pointed out yourself about beings "not changing their natures". I mean what does it says then about Uriel with his power way beyond our Galaxy, and his memories from beyond Creation? Were they changed by retcon? That open another can of worms - now Creator retconning universe sounds just like this last season of SPN XD

It could be that it's all about will. We've seen older beings with will so powerful that it flattens mortals because the will of a few (or maybe hundreds) of mortals can't compare, but the problem for these older beings is that there are billions of mortals. When the will of a billion mortals is that you're just a story, it probably has an affect on you. When you have a bunch of mortals devoted to you being all powerful or just really powerful, that also probably has an affect on you.

Definitely sups can use it to anchor themselves - if at least part of what Thomas revealed about Oblivion War is real.

Damn now it gets to me - White Court - whose members are humans are trying to weaken proper superpowers influence over world - so humanity can be thrown into abyss of animalistic instincts and become prey. Thomas says that Oblivionites almost managed to lock Faeries in Oblivion. And Winter Court is guarding Outer Gates.
White Court swore on Empty Night, papa Raith is dealing with Outsiders.

That leads... to many possible tinfoil conclusions.
What if White Court on general are pawns of Outsiders for a long long time...

[Mira]

What if White Court on general are pawns of Outsiders for a long long time...

I've been saying that for years..

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I've been saying that for years..

Stars and Stones are McCoy's saying
Hells Bells seems to be Dresden's own
Empty Night - first we hear it IIRC from Lara Raith in "Blood Rites".

[Griffyn612]

There are clue going either way.  Sure, Lord Raith knew summoning spells for Behind. Sure, the appearance of the white court demon's mirror world was a place of bones, which a similar ascetic to that of the landscape just outside the Gates, where there mountains of bones.

But there's also the fact that Mab is willing to try to liaison with the Wamps. Surely with all the resources at her and everyone else's disposal, they'd know of a fundamental connection between the Wamps and the Outsiders.  And in their natural form (as seen in the mirror), Wamp demons are beings of *light*.  They glow, head to toe.  That seems to go against the Outsider all-darkness-no-light ascetic of Empty Night.

[Mira]

There are clue going either way.  Sure, Lord Raith knew summoning spells for Behind. Sure, the appearance of the white court demon's mirror world was a place of bones, which a similar ascetic to that of the landscape just outside the Gates, where there mountains of bones.

But there's also the fact that Mab is willing to try to liaison with the Wamps. Surely with all the resources at her and everyone else's disposal, they'd know of a fundamental connection between the Wamps and the Outsiders.  And in their natural form (as seen in the mirror), Wamp demons are beings of *light*.  They glow, head to toe.  That seems to go against the Outsider all-darkness-no-light ascetic of Empty Night.

Is that a WOJ?  Or did I miss something in the books or short stories?  Because I don't reading that, so which story is it from?  Harry describes the inside of Lord Raith as exactly what "empty night" is, so did Margaret wipe out his Hunger Demon, that is why he cannot feed, leave nothing?  But that would seemingly contradict what Lara said about like Thomas, Lord Raith's Hunger Demon was consuming him.

[Griffyn612]

Is that a WOJ?  Or did I miss something in the books or short stories?  Because I don't reading that, so which story is it from?  Harry describes the inside of Lord Raith as exactly what "empty night" is, so did Margaret wipe out his Hunger Demon, that is why he cannot feed, leave nothing?  But that would seemingly contradict what Lara said about like Thomas, Lord Raith's Hunger Demon was consuming him.

You're describing the magical feeling that Harry got when his magic hit the void around Lord Raith.  But that's been pretty well established, between Eb's comments and WoJ, to be a unique protection situation for Lord Raith.

The things I'm describing, with the demon being a creature of light, is from the soulgaze with Thomas.  We see Thomas's demon in the mirror, and it's described as having glowing eyes and skin.  Just like we see of their hosts when they tap their power. 

[Mira]

You're describing the magical feeling that Harry got when his magic hit the void around Lord Raith.  But that's been pretty well established, between Eb's comments and WoJ, to be a unique protection situation for Lord Raith.

The things I'm describing, with the demon being a creature of light, is from the soulgaze with Thomas.  We see Thomas's demon in the mirror, and it's described as having glowing eyes and skin.  Just like we see of their hosts when they tap their power.

Yes, but given that Harry is a star born, the feeling that he describes from Lord Raith becomes more significant, because one of the things Harry manages to "feel," for lack of a better term is possession of others by Nemesis/Outsiders.

Harry is also looking at Thomas and his struggle with the Hunger Demon though a soul gaze which leans more towards the metaphorical than actual vision.  In that same vision the Thomas struggling through the mirror with the demon is, his face is plain, he looks nearsighted, his expression strained with pain, shoulders and back tight with tension.

[Bad Alias]

I'm quite sure he was raised Baptist.

Baptists are often classified as fundamentalists, so that's certainly possible. I'm not, nor was I, saying he wasn't Baptist. Just saying what I recall hearing.

OK... but then how it worked compared to what you pointed out yourself about beings "not changing their natures".

I thought you brought that up? Doesn't matter. Their nature never changed. Just everyone's perception of it. Also, that WoJ does seem to conflict with a lot of what he and/or the books have said. So it could just be an inconsistency.