[BG spoilers!!] Revisiting the short story "Monsters"

[Dina]

Yeah, I don't know, perhaps you are right, but the story seems to stress the eihenjaren part way too much.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

But it is weird that Hendricks is not with Marcone, right?

Nathan was probably visiting his mother. Hendricks was also the one who could tell Marcone he was overstepping. I think Marcone suspected some of his people were involved and that Hendricks would have endorsed Grey’s solution instead of what Marcone wanted. This is perhaps an indication of Namshiel’s influence.

[Dina]

I agree about the latter, Namshiel influence. If that is something really happening, Harry will catch it soon (thanks to soulgaze, he knows Marcone very well) and I bet Namshiel will regret it.

[Bad Alias]

Oh, and just a comment. It is relatively easy to make the decision of saving children. As others stated here before, it's not such a great moral thing. I believe the interesting part is that while Grey or Marcone would probably go to some extremes to save children, Harry would probably go to great extremes to save any of them (Marcone and Grey, I mean). And I think in his inner heart Grey wants to be that sort of person, and he is trying. As always, Harry is probably going to influence him to go to that side. Marcone, on the other hand, seems to have decided to go the dark side. But, as I said before, I still see hope of redemption for him. And I still think Marcone himself hopes that, if he ever goes truly, truly dark, Harry will stop him.

I was looking for a reference to Marcone's past in Even Hand yesterday. While doing that I came across the following quote in Jim's forword.

In this story, we get to see a little bit of Marcone operating in his own world-a place considerably more grey and nebulous than the relatively clear-cut moral environment Harry Dresden has created with his choices. It is probably worth remembering that Marcone, despite some of the more vile things he presides over, would probably have been considered a rather decent sort of leader for the majority of recorded human history-he is, in fact, rather strongly modeled on the ideals of medieval barons, who, it seems to me, would have made surpassingly excellent and dangerous crime lords.

The reason I'm felt like this quote was appropriate here is all the statements in this thread tending in the direction that Marcone is an evil piece of human garbage. Jim sees him as more of a grey character. Definitely not a good guy, but also definitely not even close to the worst humanity has to offer.

Now, I'm sure carrying Namshiel for a truly long time would make Marcone even darker. But, realistically, he's already pretty bad. It could take Namshiel decades or centuries to get him to bend on 'no children', if he ever does. I think he's up to something more important than long-gaming a bad man into a worse one, and that something probably takes priority over changing Marcone unless he can get two birds with one stone.

Namshiel despises humanity as can be seen by his response to Harry's use of soulfire.

With Marcone being far from the worst humanity has to offer, and Namshiel's influence, I think Marcone can end up as something far worse than he is, regardless of any power Namshiel gives Marcone.

[Dina]

I don't remember Namshiel reaction to Harry using soulfire 

Yes, Jim may see Marcone as grey, which probably happens to us too, I think the better part of Marcone is not his love for children but the fact that he would risk his own life to protect the city, as we seen in PT/BG. But I also think there is truth in his Even Hand statement about him being a monster. He has chosen to do evil things for the love of power. That is quite evil, right?
I also think he will be worse due to Namshiel but I still think that Harry will prevent him for losing his soul. I don't know if Marcone will survive the BAT, but I think his soul may be redeemed, of course, probably with the standard sacrificing for the greater good.

[Snark Knight]

Namshiel despises humanity as can be seen by his response to Harry's use of soulfire.

See, it's interesting, Namshiel seems to undergo something of a shift from SmF to BG. Not exactly less evil seeming, but a lot less screamingly overt about it.

Might be that his behaviour then was coloured by being angry that a young pup of a wizard crippled a host he'd spent a long time breaking in, thanks to Uriel's cheating. But I think it was being ditched by Tessa and Rosanna, and becoming more of an independent operator instead of a close subordinate of Tessa. I think he's started to wise up that there's an infected Denarian, and he's gone loner until he can identify who it is. Or he is the infected one, but I think Mab blaming him for the Arctis Tor raid might be a misdirect based on her getting wrong intel.

[Arjan]

In small favor he had a nameless host, there as no reason to play any role, he could say what he wanted.

Now he has a named host. Everything he says is not just meant for the guy he speaks to. It is also meant for Marcone. He plays a role. It is all a lie.

[Mira]

In small favor he had a nameless host, there as no reason to play any role, he could say what he wanted.

Now he has a named host. Everything he says is not just meant for the guy he speaks to. It is also meant for Marcone. He plays a role. It is all a lie.

Yes, let us not forget, what Marcone said about "learning to think in the long term.."  That has a bit of a ominous sound to it.

[Dina]

Yes, very.
Because now he has the potential to live even longer than a wizard, and he has always been good at making plans.

[Bad Alias]

I don't remember Namshiel reaction to Harry using soulfire 

It was in the aquarium scene in SmF. Something along the lines of how dare a filthy monkey use our power. In just about every series I've seen with elder beings, calling humans monkeys or apes has been a sign of contempt for humans.

Yes, very.
Because now he has the potential to live even longer than a wizard, and he has always been good at making plans.

And this was always a complaint of mine regarding Harry's antagonism with Marcone. While totally in character for Harry, it was stupid. He could have used Marcone for the entirety of Marcone's natural life as a weapon against immortal evils. (Immortal like vampires, not the can't kill except on conjunction kind). Or he could have just waited him out. Now there's a reason that Harry will have to confront Marcone at some point.

[Dina]

I think Harry was pretty much doing that. Not in purpose, but by concentrating in other threats and leaving Marcone pretty much alone, he was doing just what you said. Of course Marcone had to do something to change that but we will see how it works for him.

Also yes, as you said, "use" people would be out of character for Harry.

[Bad Alias]

Also yes, as you said, "use" people would be out of character for Harry.

I was more saying that not being antagonistic with Marcone every single time they interact would be out of character for Harry.

Using Marcone would be less out of character for Harry because he did use Marcone every 3-5 books. He just hated doing it, so it would be out of character for him to just do it to the extent I was talking about.

[Dina]

Yes, I think I understood you meant that. I agree.

[Arjan]

I was more saying that not being antagonistic with Marcone every single time they interact would be out of character for Harry.

Using Marcone would be less out of character for Harry because he did use Marcone every 3-5 books. He just hated doing it, so it would be out of character for him to just do it to the extent I was talking about.

Marcone knows exactly what Harry is and what they think about each other. That is why they can use each other so effectively. They have soul gazed.

[Dina]

Mostly agree. Marcone and Harry know exactly what the other is, due to the soulgaze. Marcone also knows what Harry thinks of him because Harry tells him so every Tuesday. But I don't think Harry knows what Marcone thinks of him. That is why us readers don't really know what Marcone thinks of him.

But yes, their knowledge of each other helps them to use each other.