Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT

[TheCuriousFan]

Can an angel be killed?

The Eye of Balor can do it if they don't block or dodge (which means in all practical terms no they can't be killed).

Well speaking of sweeping through people, so... Ethniu has this superweapon, the Eye of Balor, now that Harry has it is that the kind of weapon that someone even of the level of Mother Winter would appreciate or would she just kind of find that thing quaint and be like "aw that's cute but"?

Oh no, no, that was a weapon of Balor, he was a titan. He was one of the big bads of-he was the big bad of Celtic mythology. But yeah Balor's weapon is something that was so formidable that /the gods/ had to be afraid of it, it was something that-there were multiple stories about it, yeah I mean they're all gonna be impressed. You know at the end of the day when somebody puts a .44 magnum in your face he's got a .44 magnum in your face and that's what Dresden has, the Eye of Balor is a .44 magnum to anybody, it's dangerous.

Is it even like dangerous to Uriel? Or his boss?

If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.

[Dina]

I've been thinking something. The Eye is not so impressive is Harry can't use it. And he told Marcone that he couldn't. BUT what if what we were talking about the weapons is true, and Harry just got the user's manual for them when he placed them at the armory at Demonreach? Some sort of side-effect of being the Warden. If that is the case, he would have the user's manual for the Eye now. And perhaps he cannot use it in normal conditions but he knows now how to create the conditions (like, tapping a leyline, for instance). That way he would have an effective grip of the weapon.

[Arjan]

I've been thinking something. The Eye is not so impressive is Harry can't use it. And he told Marcone that he couldn't. BUT what if what we were talking about the weapons is true, and Harry just got the user's manual for them when he placed them at the armory at Demonreach? Some sort of side-effect of being the Warden. If that is the case, he would have the user's manual for the Eye now. And perhaps he cannot use it in normal conditions but he knows now how to create the conditions (like, tapping a leyline, for instance). That way he would have an effective grip of the weapon.

There are prisoners on the island who can use it. 

[Dina]

Yes, at least one who is bound to Harry.

[morriswalters]

Is it even like dangerous to Uriel? Or his boss?

If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.

Really? Jim invents a weapon so powerful it can kill and Archangel and then places it in the hands of the village idiot.  A nine foot tall village idiot who leads her chief henchman around with a leash.

[vincentric]

If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.Really? Jim invents a weapon so powerful it can kill and Archangel and then places it in the hands of the village idiot.  A nine foot tall village idiot who leads her chief henchman around with a leash.

A Village idiot who put a beatdown an all star cast of immortals, wizards, heroes and monsters all by herself. And the only one she used the Eye on was Mab.

Even if they had known she had it prior to PT, who do you think is badass enough to have gone to the Formor kingdom and taken it from her?

[morriswalters]

A Village idiot who put a beatdown an all star cast of immortals, wizards, heroes and monsters all by herself. And the only one she used the Eye on was Mab.

Even if they had known she had it prior to PT, who do you think is badass enough to have gone to the Formor kingdom and taken it from her?

My complaint is that the Titan didn't turn out to much of a threat as threats go, especially given the buildup. The Fomor killed more people in when they gassed a city to get at a hospital, no  Eye needed.  Where's the sense of menace?  Where is the fear?  Jim actually has Marcone rag her about it.

“If you had a mind,” Marcone said, “you would have used restraint. You would have arisen from the water with no warning to anyone. You would have unleashed a wave of expendable troops on the city, blown down a building or two, and returned to the sea to watch the havoc unfold.” He shook his head. “I will simply never understand the need some people seem to feel to be proven correct in front of their enemies. It’s quite childish.”

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 326). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[vincentric]

She had overwhelming power, but her strategy was was kindergarten tantrum 101. Marcone critiques her methods not her power.

[TheCuriousFan]

If Uriel just stood there in it, yeah, I mean he wouldn't, it could kill him I mean it's- again it's one of those- I mean Uriel is... he's so powerful that he's not even on the scale with everybody else. I mean yeah maybe the Eye of Balor could disintegrate Uriel if Uriel couldn't just immediately teleport anywhere or make the energy go somewhere else or basically do anything at all to defend himself. If he just stood there like a dummy, sure somebody could kill him with the Eye of Balor. He's not going to, freaking archangel.Really? Jim invents a weapon so powerful it can kill and Archangel and then places it in the hands of the village idiot.  A nine foot tall village idiot who leads her chief henchman around with a leash.

The Dresden Files is a land of glass cannons, being able to throw out rocket launcher blasts is way more common than being able to take a rocket to the face and keep on going for example.

[morriswalters]

She had overwhelming power, but her strategy was was kindergarten tantrum 101. Marcone critiques her methods not her power.

Yes, village idiot 101.

The Dresden Files is a land of glass cannons, being able to throw out rocket launcher blasts is way more common than being able to take a rocket to the face and keep on going for example.

Yeah, but the Eye is the Glass Canon in this case, it's powerful if someone grabs the barrel and says shoot here. That is what pisses me off in the WOJ, because that is precisely what Jim is saying.

Here's the thing.  Past antagonists have had palatable menace, you could easily see how they might win and how ugly it would be if they did.  The Reds are a perfect example. Every time I think of the King Corb on the leash and the Titan all I can image is the Keystone Cops or the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight. Anyway, I'll shut up about it.

[K.L.O.E.]

Yes, village idiot 101.Yeah, but the Eye is the Glass Canon in this case, it's powerful if someone grabs the barrel and says shoot here. That is what pisses me off in the WOJ, because that is precisely what Jim is saying.

Here's the thing.  Past antagonists have had palatable menace, you could easily see how they might win and how ugly it would be if they did.  The Reds are a perfect example. Every time I think of the King Corb on the leash and the Titan all I can image is the Keystone Cops or the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight. Anyway, I'll shut up about it.

You have a point here though. In a sense the Fomor were a closed-off might makes right sort of society. No one could kill Corb or Ethniu so they likely slaughtered their way to the top of the heap and as a result guile kind of died in Fomor society. You can scheme all you want but unless you steal a fusion bomb from a submarine (the sun lighting up the bottom of the sea?) you can't kill them. The defenders are mostly guile heroes or smart villains who stay alive with their brains. There's a strong contrast here that I think Jim may have been trying to play up. If Listen had been running the battle I have no doubt that Millions would have died (I'm assuming the Eye didn't take down planes or fry pacemakers etc.)

[Bad Alias]

Yes, but that is the problem, isn't it. Harry is a P.I. He is supposed to be interested in finding answers. Why he did not some research on his own life? Specially now, as whatever happens to him in the future will probably impact Maggie. And Bonea herself.

Nobody wants to talk to Harry about the really important stuff. Jim keeps him isolated from information about his mother all the time, he only gets some fragments.

And I also think he is afraid of what he would find sometimes.

Arjan nailed it. At one point Harry says something about how he was only able to gather tidbits about his mother. I think it was when he had that talk with Eb in BR, but I'm not sure. And Harry goes on and on and on about he avoids introspection and thinks he's not a good person. It's very in character for Harry to not ask questions about himself.

I was told I was bright when I was young.  The way I lived my life said otherwise.

You ain't the only one.

The Spear also allowed him to do the binding further from Demonreach.

Yeah. Harry wouldn't have defeated Ethniu without it.

Yes, but we know sometimes Harry is not a reliable narrator. Still, I think you are right. I have sustained since I first read BG that one of the reasons Marcone did not go for the Eye was the fact that Harry could kill both of them. Yes, Harry was wasted, but it was a large bet. If they were underestimating Harry's remaining power, they would be screw. And both of them knew that Harry has a history of winning against the odds. They also know Harry stubborness. If he managed to gather a little willpower to Forzare the spear, they could die. And I suspect Namshiel is not as brave as Marcone. (On a side note, I also have the theory that Marcone himself did not want the Eye near a Fallen, even if it is a Fallen he was hosting.)

And not to forget, like Harry and apparently Jim did, Harry had a couple of guns on him at that point.

There are prisoners on the island who can use it. 

Also that guy who only has one eye that Harry owes a favor to that was repeatedly called out by that particular feature in the book HARRY GOT AN EXTRA EYE THAT HE HAS NO USE FOR.

Every time I think of the King Corb on the leash and the Titan all I can image is the Keystone Cops or the Gang Who Couldn't Shoot Straight. Anyway, I'll shut up about it.

One can hope that Jim was laying ground work to make Listen a palatable menace down the line.

[Arjan]

Arjan nailed it. At one point Harry says something about how he was only able to gather tidbits about his mother. I think it was when he had that talk with Eb in BR, but I'm not sure. And Harry goes on and on and on about he avoids introspection and thinks he's not a good person. It's very in character for Harry to not ask questions about himself.
You ain't the only one.
Yeah. Harry wouldn't have defeated Ethniu without it.
And not to forget, like Harry and apparently Jim did, Harry had a couple of guns on him at that point.
Also that guy who only has one eye that Harry owes a favor to that was repeatedly called out by that particular feature in the book HARRY GOT AN EXTRA EYE THAT HE HAS NO USE FOR.

That eye was sacrificed for wisdom. I am sure Odin will loose a lot of wisdom when he puts that other eye in.

[Dina]

Bad Alias, yes, about the guns. I was so hoping a moment when Marcone eyes the Eye (:-P) and then he looks at Harry and found him pointing a gun to him. Also, I was disappointed he did not use Murphy's gun at all but I supposed that will happen in the future.

[Bad Alias]

That eye was sacrificed for wisdom. I am sure Odin will loose a lot of wisdom when he puts that other eye in.

Maybe. I'm not so sure myself.

@Dina: Nice turn of phrase. My only real disappointment with these two books is the rampant lack of continuity and plot holes. A lot of the continuity stuff can be explained away. I just don't find most of the explanations I've seen at all satisfying. A lot of the plot holes can be explained later. Maybe Jim will fix it all later. There have been problems like this in the other books, but it feels like there are more in these two books than in all the others combined.

Most of the continuity and plot hole problems could have been fixed without much effort. For example, Jim could have put in a line about how Marcone could get him before he could reach his gun.