Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT

[Dina]

I agree he sometimes is scared but precisely why nobody talks to Harry he should have asked Bonnie.

[Arjan]

I agree he sometimes is scared but precisely why nobody talks to Harry he should have asked Bonnie.

Except Bonnie is also his daughter and he should protect her and help her grow up as a responsible good person. I do not think that sort of questions are exacly good for Bonnie at this point of time. There is a reason he wants to keep her separated from Bob.

[morriswalters]

But apparently Harry did not think in asking her what being a Starborn meant.

I was told I was bright when I was young.  The way I lived my life said otherwise.

Having said that, Harry has at his beck and call two talking heads.  The answer to any question that you can ask about how Harry knows things can be answered by saying Bonea said or Bob said. In the case of Starborns say that Bonea isn't the little child Jim would like you to believe, so Harry asked and she lied either directly or indirectly.  Because after all she is the offspring of a Fallen angel named Lasciel. The deceiver.

[Mira]

I was told I was bright when I was young.  The way I lived my life said otherwise.

Having said that, Harry has at his beck and call two talking heads.  The answer to any question that you can ask about how Harry knows things can be answered by saying Bonea said or Bob said. In the case of Starborns say that Bonea isn't the little child Jim would like you to believe, so Harry asked and she lied either directly or indirectly.  Because after all she is the offspring of a Fallen angel named Lasciel. The deceiver.

All one has to do is refer to the scene where Bonnie and Maggie are making pancakes.  Bonnie may have 150 recipes for pancakes in her data base, but she thinks milk is alive because it moves.  So whether or not she may have the information on the Spear becomes questionable, she really doesn't have the experience to be a reliable source for that information.  She has a lot to learn before she will be reliable, and not so much because her mother was a deceiver.

[morriswalters]

I wasn't speaking about what Harry did or didn't do, simply how I justify how he could know.

[Mira]

I wasn't speaking about what Harry did or didn't do, simply how I justify how he could know.

I understand, what I am saying is Bonnie at this point wouldn't be a very reliable source of information, so I doubt he'd even try to get it from her.  With some things, there is general knowledge, heck if anyone has heard of the Spear of Destiny at all they have basic knowledge to begin with.  Harry understood upon seeing it what it was,what it meant, and that was what Nic was really after, and he nabbed it.  Hades told Harry, only those with the skill and the commitment to use them could get them.  Harry realized immediately that the artifacts were weapons, so he passed the first test. Then he said the fate of the weapons is in the hands of the one who found them and understand what they are.  I think that opened up quite a bit of knowledge for Harry.  Alfred, from his reaction to Harry's request for two of the artifacts in Peace Talks, says to me at any rate that he understands very well what the artifacts are and how they are used.  When Harry brought them to the island for safe keeping, I bet he asked a lot of questions. 

[KurtinStGeorge]

It's been a while since I read Death Masks, but in that case, Harry figuring out how the plague was going to be unleashed wasn't that difficult, or implausible. 

I wrote plaque, not plague.  I suppose I should have said placard instead or plaque from The Cross.  Harry came up with the idea of how to use it; or how Mac could use it, out of nowhere.  There is nothing in the Dresden books, bible or middle age mythology to give a clue how it could be used.  (By middle age mythology I'm referring to the beliefs in the mystical power of numerous pieces of "True Cross," thorns from the Crown of Thorns and many other items of highly questionable authenticity, which were sold to Churches, Kings and nobles during the middle ages.  They were treated as holy items but outside the various fake Spears of Longinus, no one said they had some special temporal purpose the holder could take advantage of.)

[Mira]

I wrote plaque, not plague.  I suppose I should have said placard instead or plaque from The Cross.  Harry came up with the idea of how to use it; or how Mac could use it, out of nowhere.  There is nothing in the Dresden books, bible or middle age mythology to give a clue how it could be used.  (By middle age mythology I'm referring to the beliefs in the mystical power of numerous pieces of "True Cross," thorns from the Crown of Thorns and many other items of highly questionable authenticity, which were sold to Churches, Kings and nobles during the middle ages.  They were treated as holy items but outside the various fake Spears of Longinus, no one said they had some special temporal purpose the holder could take advantage of.)

Sorry, a lot on my mind at the moment.  I agree about the Placard, it was never explained just what is did, they just sort of did at the bar. 

[morriswalters]

You can take Jin out of the bible belt but you can't take the bible belt out of Jim. The objects were used exactly as you would expect if you look at the crucifixion mythology.

The sign designated Jesus as the King of the Jews. Jesus died on the cross to atone for the sins of man. He died to save them. Which is what is implied for the sign in the book.

The Spear pierced the side of Jesus and released water and blood. And mythological BS aside this is precisely how Harry would have used it in the end.

But it was a spear to everything. If I could stick it in the Titan, she would bleed.

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 321). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Except that Jim has an Super Marcone do it with a pocket knife. Everything else is embellishment. In advance Harry has his staff altered by the swartelves.  He had Bob, his research assistant.  So he had obviously done due diligence and his homework.

[Dina]

The Spear also allowed him to do the binding further from Demonreach and I think it was important for the binding too, because he used it for make the circle (with Bob). That was not something I expected.

I so want to know if the Spear can kill a Fallen (not only the host, the actual Fallen).

[vincentric]

It's a Spear to anything by Harry's description.

[Dina]

Yes, but we know sometimes Harry is not a reliable narrator. Still, I think you are right. I have sustained since I first read BG that one of the reasons Marcone did not go for the Eye was the fact that Harry could kill both of them. Yes, Harry was wasted, but it was a large bet. If they were underestimating Harry's remaining power, they would be screw. And both of them knew that Harry has a history of winning against the odds. They also know Harry stubborness. If he managed to gather a little willpower to Forzare the spear, they could die. And I suspect Namshiel is not as brave as Marcone. (On a side note, I also have the theory that Marcone himself did not want the Eye near a Fallen, even if it is a Fallen he was hosting.)

[TheCuriousFan]

It's a Spear to anything by Harry's description.

Of course, we still have no clue if it also has the Eye's perma-death capabilities even if Jim reused that "it's an x for anything" description when talking about it.

[morriswalters]

Yes, but we know sometimes Harry is not a reliable narrator. Still, I think you are right. I have sustained since I first read BG that one of the reasons Marcone did not go for the Eye was the fact that Harry could kill both of them. Yes, Harry was wasted, but it was a large bet. If they were underestimating Harry's remaining power, they would be screw. And both of them knew that Harry has a history of winning against the odds. They also know Harry stubborness. If he managed to gather a little willpower to Forzare the spear, they could die. And I suspect Namshiel is not as brave as Marcone. (On a side note, I also have the theory that Marcone himself did not want the Eye near a Fallen, even if it is a Fallen he was hosting.)

Can an angel be killed?

[Dina]

Precisely. An spear for everything, that everything includes, well, everything? a god? a loup-garou? An angel? An archangel? Who knows how reliable can be Harry. But my theory is yes, it can kill anything, even outsiders or achangels. Probably not TWG.