Author Topic: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT  (Read 24311 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2020, 10:53:56 PM »
About the knowledge of the weapons, I suspected he has asked Alfred but I wondered why he never said it explicitly in his inner monologue "According to Alfred, the Spear is a spear for everything."

As a side note, I repeat what I already said, I am worried because it has never been stated that the Spear is back in the Demonreach armory. I don't know if it was lazy writing or we are facing another "Where is your blasting rod, Harry?"
Possibly, but it was a bit poor of Jim to not explain that. And I'm not sure Alfred would be able to explain it (assuming he had the knowledge) without damaging Harry.

I really hope it's not a repeat of SmF. That would be a bit annoying. I think Jim just didn't explain Harry taking it back. Or perhaps Harry is keeping it in his new fortress now. Harry seemed to think it would be as hard to get in as Demonreach (not if your Ethniu level clearly).
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2020, 12:03:52 AM »
I just wanted to let a WoJ here, it's from a pre PT interview (perhaps even before SG, I am not sure). It's about the Council reaction to Harry´s upgrades.
It's pre-PT and from 2016.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2020, 06:13:54 PM »
You also have to consider Harry's expulsion was not really about whether he broke the rules, but because people wanted him out of the Council. For varying reasons. Some on the Council think he is a legitimate danger (and clearly there is a big reveal coming about Harry's dark origins and possible future). Some want him isolated from his former allies so he will be easier to manipulate. Some just want him removed so he can be killed easier. It's politics after all.
Maybe they just hope some old enemy of his will bump him off.

Or perhaps Harry is keeping it in his new fortress now. Harry seemed to think it would be as hard to get in as Demonreach (not if your Ethniu level clearly).
It might be that hard, or close to it, for Ethniu. She blasted her way out, not in. That's often much easier.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2020, 06:37:05 PM »
Maybe they just hope some old enemy of his will bump him off.
It might be that hard, or close to it, for Ethniu. She blasted her way out, not in. That's often much easier.
Marcone did not use all things possible with the enchantments in the stones. Harry will create insane level wards.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2020, 04:09:05 AM »
Maybe they just hope some old enemy of his will bump him off.
I think some of them have been. Drakul seems to imply that some of them want him for some special reason, a sacrifice or weapon bred specifically.

Quote
It might be that hard, or close to it, for Ethniu. She blasted her way out, not in. That's often much easier.
Maybe...Marcone did have Gard help with the defences. While Harry might get better ones, truth is that Ethniu is a power both older and greater than Mab and such beings. She seemingly had most of her full power, she was armoured in nigh-invulnerable plot armour and armed with a super-weapon. Gods have constantly been used a reference point for beings that could smash down seemingly impregnable locations (Arctis Tor, crossing a strong threshold and still have plenty of mojo, Edinburgh etc). It might hold a bit longer but I doubt if the God was prepared Harry could do much about it. As Ethniu was.

Marcone did not use all things possible with the enchantments in the stones. Harry will create insane level wards.
Not sure that he will create wards. He still needs families living there to build a strong enough threshold to build on. Even so, the wards are already there. All he has to do is activate what's still working. The problem he has is what does he do about the one that were destroyed?
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2020, 05:07:00 PM »
Maybe...Marcone did have Gard help with the defences.
The wards in place were similar to the ones on Demonreach. They could have been from Merlin. Marcone also had Namshiel. I don't know if Gard was adding a whole lot in magic department at that point.

Another point is that the wards probably weren't fully armed because Marcone had guests coming and going.

Offline K.L.O.E.

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2020, 01:14:37 AM »
Maybe...Marcone did have Gard help with the defences. While Harry might get better ones, truth is that Ethniu is a power both older and greater than Mab and such beings. She seemingly had most of her full power, she was armoured in nigh-invulnerable plot armour and armed with a super-weapon. Gods have constantly been used a reference point for beings that could smash down seemingly impregnable locations (Arctis Tor, crossing a strong threshold and still have plenty of mojo, Edinburgh etc). It might hold a bit longer but I doubt if the God was prepared Harry could do much about it. As Ethniu was. 

I think Ethniu with the eye could storm Demonreach despite Harry being on the Island and the wards all turned on. It may take a few shots but I think it would get the job done. As far as Marcone and the wards goes they probably selected the wards that they did to protect specifically against the Fomor.

Quote
Not sure that he will create wards. He still needs families living there to build a strong enough threshold to build on. Even so, the wards are already there. All he has to do is activate what's still working. The problem he has is what does he do about the one that were destroyed?

I wonder if the threshold of a Castle moves with it? If this building is centuries old and had a student of Merlin as well as the Twyleth Teg put wards down they may just need to get turned on and can run off the power stored in the stones.
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Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2020, 02:57:19 AM »
The wards in place were similar to the ones on Demonreach. They could have been from Merlin. Marcone also had Namshiel. I don't know if Gard was adding a whole lot in magic department at that point.

Another point is that the wards probably weren't fully armed because Marcone had guests coming and going.
Do you remember Gard's ward on her locker at the train station? Ward's are something she can do, arguably better than Harry. Her job for Marcone is as a consultant so I expect that she was giving him the bulk of the advice. She didn't need to place any wards on the castle; they already were there. I suspect Marcone has been keeping Namshiel under wraps for a while, I doubt he wanted to reveal that even at the end. Marcone, like all of the really clever guys, keeps his cards close to his chest. I suspect he didn't let Gard in on that. Which isn't to say she didn't know. But I am sure he was playing dumb about a few things in order to just be the little old Baron, not a Knight of the Blackened Denarius. Particularly because Gard has quite strong feelings about those guys - as does Vadderung I am sure.

I think Ethniu with the eye could storm Demonreach despite Harry being on the Island and the wards all turned on. It may take a few shots but I think it would get the job done. As far as Marcone and the wards goes they probably selected the wards that they did to protect specifically against the Fomor.

I wonder if the threshold of a Castle moves with it? If this building is centuries old and had a student of Merlin as well as the Twyleth Teg put wards down they may just need to get turned on and can run off the power stored in the stones.
Perhaps, she was very strong. Although Sharkface couldn't get through on brute force either...and why he arguably wasn't as strong as Ethniu (at that moment) he is still a heavy hitter. But then again, Alfred was specifically made for capturing beings like Ethniu (and by Harry's own admission Ethniu isn't the biggest thing on Demonreach, by some margin). I suspect she would be pretty loathe to attack Harry on Demonreach unless she was desperate or had a cleverer approach. The wards were there to protect against any supernatural threat - the insult to the Fomor was written above the entrance to make a point that Marcone wasn't afraid of them (which he clearly underestimated).

WOJ is that Marcone had to move a bunch of families in as there was no threshold in order for the wards to work. I suspect it comes down to when the the home is either destroyed or no longer a home, the threshold is destroyed too. It's people that create the thresholds after all. I suspect caves had them originally.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2020, 06:37:14 PM »
Do you remember Gard's ward on her locker at the train station? Ward's are something she can do.
So? Doesn't mean she helped him with the wards or that the wards were Gard's. She may have helped. I highly doubt they were her wards.

Quote
Whoever had constructed this place, they’d warded it at least as heavily as the defenses of the White Council’s own headquarters under Edinburgh. I could have hurled Power at this place all the ding-dong day, and it would have about as much effect as tossing handfuls of sand at sheet metal. It was similarly fortified against spiritual intrusion, with the only possible access points being the heavily armored entryways—and even those had been improved upon since I’d slipped my immaterial self through an open door.

Nothing was getting in now. The castle would make one hell of a defensive position.

Or, some nasty, suspicious part of me said, nothing was getting out, making it one hell of a trap.

“Huh,” Ebenezar said, squinting at the castle. “That’s old work. Real old.

“Our people, you think?” I asked him.

“Nnngh,” he said, which meant that he didn’t think so. “Maybe Tylwyth Teg. Maybe even Tuatha.

“Tuatha?”

The old man’s mouth curled up at one corner, and his eyes were thoughtful and approving. “The ancient enemy of the Fomor,” he said.

“Ah,” I said. “Statements are being made.”
Emphasis added. So maybe it was as hard to blow her way out as it would have been to blow her way in.

There's a lot of contradictions in that quote. It implies that the wards were done by whoever constructed the Castle, but also that some of them weren't there when Harry was there in GS. The quote also implies Harry wasn't invited in that time. He was. The quote further implies that the wards were done by beings from either Welsh or Irish folklore. I'm not sure whether or not the Tautha are considered fairies in the Dresden Files. I'm not sure if there even extant.

This is also the quote that forgets that Harry was there in SG and that it's the Brighter Future Society.

Anybody have the quote about the wards from Battle Ground? I haven't gotten a digital copy of that one yet.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #54 on: December 03, 2020, 10:40:14 PM »
So? Doesn't mean she helped him with the wards or that the wards were Gard's. She may have helped. I highly doubt they were her wards.
Emphasis added. So maybe it was as hard to blow her way out as it would have been to blow her way in.

There's a lot of contradictions in that quote. It implies that the wards were done by whoever constructed the Castle, but also that some of them weren't there when Harry was there in GS. The quote also implies Harry wasn't invited in that time. He was. The quote further implies that the wards were done by beings from either Welsh or Irish folklore. I'm not sure whether or not the Tautha are considered fairies in the Dresden Files. I'm not sure if there even extant.

This is also the quote that forgets that Harry was there in SG and that it's the Brighter Future Society.

Anybody have the quote about the wards from Battle Ground? I haven't gotten a digital copy of that one yet.
Quote
She shook her head. “Have you noticed all the enchantments on the place?” Molly asked skeptically. “There is some really old stuff here that is still working.”

In point of fact, I had Bob going over the entire thing now for an in-depth assessment. The defensive systems built into the castle had been laid up by a wizard with a particularly thorough breed of the crazies. My first read was that Marcone’s use of them had only touched the surface of their potential—maybe Thorned Namshiel hadn’t yet had time to teach him to make full use of them. Hell, the only reason I felt like I knew what I was talking about was that the enchantments hardwired into the stones of the castle bore a startling structural resemblance to those that had been used to create Demonreach. It was entirely possible that the castle’s magical defenses had been the work of the original Merlin or one of his inheritors.

It would take time to be sure, but if I was right, by the time I was done with the place, I’d have a redoubt damned near as hard to crack as the island, and a heck of a lot more convenient to live in.

“Yeah. Kind of like having a smart house, I guess,” I said. “There’re all sorts of features I’m going to have to work through and figure out.”
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Offline Dina

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #55 on: December 03, 2020, 11:46:25 PM »
Well, Harry will want to do wands that can keep Denarian Marcone and Gard away, I am sure. So he will need to do a good job. I suspect his intellectus on the island has helped with Demonreach runes and that in turn will help him with the Castle ones, and that is why Namshiel couldn't do that himself. That, or there are something in the wards themselves that are against Denarians.
Gosh, I hope Excalibur is in the castle soon.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2020, 11:48:20 PM »
I won't live to see this, but I think that the wards are angelic.  I think this is the whole reason for Bonea.  Everything is a trail of breadcrumbs leading to the finale.  The Castle, the island, Bonea and the guy in Demonreach.  Everything related to Merlin. Bonea isn't just a little girl spirit.  She bargained with Mab when she helped keep Harry alive in Ghost Story. Why keep Harry ignorant until Cold Days? One question Jim has to deal with is how Merlin would have known what he knew of the magic that he used.

Offline K.L.O.E.

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2020, 11:53:47 PM »
Perhaps, she was very strong. Although Sharkface couldn't get through on brute force either...and why he arguably wasn't as strong as Ethniu (at that moment) he is still a heavy hitter. But then again, Alfred was specifically made for capturing beings like Ethniu (and by Harry's own admission Ethniu isn't the biggest thing on Demonreach, by some margin). I suspect she would be pretty loathe to attack Harry on Demonreach unless she was desperate or had a cleverer approach. The wards were there to protect against any supernatural threat - the insult to the Fomor was written above the entrance to make a point that Marcone wasn't afraid of them (which he clearly underestimated).

WOJ is that Marcone had to move a bunch of families in as there was no threshold in order for the wards to work. I suspect it comes down to when the the home is either destroyed or no longer a home, the threshold is destroyed too. It's people that create the thresholds after all. I suspect caves had them originally.

Sharkface may be incredibly powerful but he's still bound by whatever not being of this reality. Ethniu is part of this reality and mordite takes it past that. Plus the Eye being a ranged weapon she could go for the actual bedrock of the island which may not be warded (she'd go for the frontal assault, she's a child but she could do something different).

As far as there being nastier things than Titans chained up in Demonreach I'm reminded of how Harry described Alfred as being an Antlion going after bigger bugs. The circle is the sand trap that the bugs fall into and the will of the binder is the walls which keep the bugs from getting in. Then the antlion comes in and takes them away.

Also the quotes in Battle Grounds make it sound like you can anchor wards in stone, you just need to turn them on and power them. Can Harry tap a leyline from his place?

I won't live to see this, but I think that the wards are angelic.  I think this is the whole reason for Bonea.  Everything is a trail of breadcrumbs leading to the finale.  The Castle, the island, Bonea and the guy in Demonreach.  Everything related to Merlin. Bonea isn't just a little girl spirit.  She bargained with Mab when she helped keep Harry alive in Ghost Story. Why keep Harry ignorant until Cold Days? One question Jim has to deal with is how Merlin would have known what he knew of the magic that he used.

She's also Lash's child so she's probably got a devious streak. I wonder when Harry will turn to Bonea for magic lessons? As for Merlin maybe he had a divine tutor as well? Pre-mortal Vadderung? Or Merlin is another Starborn (in some version he's the Devil's son) and learned from something he bound?
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2020, 03:57:39 AM »
Quote
It was entirely possible that the castle’s magical defenses had been the work of the original Merlin or one of his inheritors.
Thanks. This part and something Jim said on The Dresden Files Podcast makes me thing it was one of the authors of Eb's journals. Jim said the castle was from Scotland. Eb's Scottish. It's a stretch, I know.

... the guy in Demonreach.  Everything related to Merlin.
Jim said the guy in Demonreach was put there by the original Warden of the island.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2020, 02:12:53 AM »
To be honest, I believe Jim was getting so rushed with his last two (one) novel(s) that he didn't apply the polish we are used to. Several times I suspect he just wanted to put the idea on paper but didn't really go through the whole process of working out how that information should come out naturally, and we as readers are highly sensitive to that. It's hard as an author to get that right as it is but when under pressure I am not surprised that things blow out a bit.

That is plausible.
 
Take Harry's conversation with Bob early on in BG about Reality starting to break. The scene is almost word for word something out of one of Jim's interviews or Q&As - Harry is the questioner and Bob is Jim. Why would Harry say to Bob (in-universe) "Ferrovax the Dragon" when Bob would already know who he meant by saying Ferrovax and Bob probably knows more than Harry about what Ferro really is? And why would Harry bring up a conversation from 20 years ago with a being who wasn't even present for it (as though they were) to ask about this? It was almost as if Jim wanted remind not just the audience but also himself of what happened in Grave Peril when Harry and Ferro first meet.

The conversation would have made more sense (in my opinion) if it read more like:
"Bob, when I first met Ferrovax he told me his true form would crack the Earth - did he mean Reality?"
"Yes, Harry you moron. Did you really think he meant physically crack the planet's crust with his weight? It only took you 20 years to figure that out!"

Or something like that. Instead it came off as clunky, ham-handed exposition. It wasn't the usual standard of Jim's writing at all.

I concur.

Another example is Dresden's mysteriously deep and practical knowledge of how the Arma Christi (Weapons of Christ - the artefacts he retrieved from Hades' vault) seem to work. How on earth did he know how the plaque worked? It's not like that knowledge is just everyday information (there is no lore that suggests it in our world either). If it is common knowledge in Harry's universe (which would be extremely bizarre) then shouldn't more people know? If it is in fact the rare knowledge that it most likely IS (and should be), how does Harry come to possess it? It's not like Harry could just test this stuff either. It's almost like a scene was missing where Harry needed to seek out information on the artefacts of the Redeemer. Same with the Spear of Destiny? How does Harry know it's a spear to everything (I assume that means nothing can stop it)? And what a crude use of it too. A mundane stabbing tool. Surely the Spear of Destiny (supposedly a weapon that makes the holder invincible) can be used better than for a mere tactical contest? We are talking a thing connected to the fundamental and supreme power in the universe. And while we can put it down to Harry being a brute yadda yadda - we know now that Harry hasn't been the brutish "engineer" that Jim wanted him to appear as for a long time. We have seen that he is intelligent, crafty, ruthless, diplomatic (at times) and thoughtful. Harry's should know more about his weapons, that doesn't bother me. But how he came into that knowledge does. It almost appears to just pop into his head. Who knows, maybe it's another type of intellectus (clever tool for Jim to use too).

The way that Harry knew how the plaque worked really bothered me.  The spear a little less, but there was a little voice in the back of my mind saying to me, "this is weak."  It reminds my of something a certain foul mouthed movie critic (Mr. Plinkett) on the YouTube channel Red Letter Media says about logical inconsistencies in movie scripts that you might not consciously notice; at least on a first viewing, because the movie is fast paced or a major action scene follows; "You didn't notice it, but your brain did."  Sometimes it's only when you discuss a movie with other people; or in this case a novel, or re-watch or re-read it, that the writing flaws become easily apparent, but something in the back of your mind was already pinging you that something was off. 

My best guess is Jim had a scene in mind that took place on Demonreach where being The Warden of island gave Harry a level of intelectus to understand how the weapons worked.  I think it would have been best if that had happened in the denouement chapter of Skin Game.  Harry could have locked the weapons in one of the empty crystals meant for prisoners and then had an a sudden understanding of what they did.  A short conversation would have followed with Alfred with a surprised Harry exclaiming something simple and direct like "I know what they can do, now,"  with Alfred replying, "Of course, you are the Warden."  Unfortunately, Jim needed to wrap up other elements of Skin Game and reveal future complications and conflicts, so such a scene was never written.  It might have also been done in Peace Talks or Battle Ground but perhaps because the story was already pretty long as it was, Jim might have decided that adding a scene like the one I described above might have slowed down the pace of story to an unacceptable level.  So, I think Jim probably knows how Harry knows about the Arma Christi, he just forgot to explain it to us. Oops!

Jim has always made a bit of a point through out the series of the dangers of large organisations that impose rules on others. I suspect he himself was channelling his own feeling about bureaucracy (particularly in relation to his rather harsh treatment by the university administration - not the professors - something he mentioned in an interview).

I think I'll refrain from trying to psychoanalyze Jim.  You could be right, but I don't know if there could be other factors involved.

It's somewhat thematic too for such an old organisation, so it works in-universe too. Currently he has Harry seceding from the White Council under the guise of this is for the best etc. Maybe it is, time will tell. But it's certainly heading towards the destruction of the White Council and the rules-based order they have helped keep. There may come a time where Harry might regret this. Perhaps he is even being nudged to do this. These days Harry sounds a lot like Cowl when he talks to and about the White Council - but with less haughtiness and style.

Many of us have long known that something like this is coming.  Though it might not result in the wholesale destruction of the White Council, but things will certainly get shaken up.  The Gatekeeper hinted at this in Turn Coat.  Now it seems to be right around the corner.  At least in universe it may be right around the corner.  For the readers it might be something more like four to six years.
 
 
You also have to consider Harry's expulsion was not really about whether he broke the rules, but because people wanted him out of the Council. For varying reasons. Some on the Council think he is a legitimate danger (and clearly there is a big reveal coming about Harry's dark origins and possible future). Some want him isolated from his former allies so he will be easier to manipulate. Some just want him removed so he can be killed easier. It's politics after all.

Yes, there are those who are acting out of fear and those who are playing one kind of game or another.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 02:16:16 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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