Wait, How Did Warden Ramirez Know About...? - From PT

[KurtinStGeorge]

This seems like a rather minor part of a conversation Carlos had with Harry, at Marcone's Castle before Ehniu showed up.

Carlos - "How's Karrin doing?"
Harry - "Like always, but slower and grouchier."
Carlos - "I heard what she did.  Went hand to hand with Nicodemus Archleone and survived."

How did Carlos or anyone from the White Council know about this?  Was someone sitting under a veil watching the whole thing play out?  That seems highly unlikely.  I don't think Rashid saw it through some time travel message shenanigan's.  If he had it's unlikely he would have told anybody else unless he believed it was necessary to do so.

I'm going to eliminate Nicodemus and the Genoskwa from the list of people who would have spilled the story.  One's on the run and the other would rather kill a human than talk to one.  That leaves Harry, Murphy, Michael and Waldo Butters.  Charity was in the safe room with the children.

Murphy was pretending that her injuries occurred in a traffic accident and Harry would have backed her up on this.  That leaves Michael and Waldo and Michael was in the game a long time before that day.  Long enough to know there are some things you don't share around the campfire. 

I think Waldo Butters shared the story of Murphy going up against Nicodemus with some of the people on the paranet.  He wouldn't have done it out of maliciousness, just a lack of understanding that some things need to be kept under wraps.  Unless, it was Mr. Sunshine and that seems really, really unlikely.  Do you have a different solution? 

A couple of other questions come to mind.  Shouldn't Harry have been surprised by Carlos' question?  If Ramirez knows about Murphy going against Nicodemus, how much more does he; and the White Council, know about the break in of Marcone's vault?  For that matter, what about the rest of the major players in the supernatural world.  For example, shouldn't Lara know the same facts?  However, even though Carlos knew that Nicodemus had been set up, he gave Marcone all the credit for doing so, which was incorrect.  Marcone and Hades provided the bait.  Mab was the real brains behind the plan and Harry made it happen.  Do you think Carlos realized that Harry was involved, because it didn't seem like he did to me?  If you want to reread this passage, it's in chapter 25, page 238.     

[Arjan]

Word gets around. Part of it because of Marcone and Mab who want everyone to know about Nicodemus defeat. Part of it because everyone is watching each other.

[Dina]

I forgot to mention this before, but yes, it surprised me too. Specially the "I heard" but it implies that he does not know it thanks to Harry. But, IIRC, they were spreading the word that they were working for Marcone, so I think Marcone and his people spread the word. But of course, it could have been Michael. If that is the case, I hope the White Council also knows what Michael said of them in the end of BG 

[Mira]

   Not so surprised about the question about Murphy perhaps.  But how would he know about her
fight with Nic that got her injured?  But then again, wouldn't that have been a friendly question to
be asked when they were on the beach before all of this went down in the first place?  Or more odd, wasn't she sitting in the Munstermobile when Carlos and company stopped Harry?  Why didn't he just ask her then, if supposedly it was all friendly, which it wasn't.

One way that makes some sense, is one of the Wardens was involved with a mission that included
Butters, the new Holy Knight.  Then he would have gotten the information that the Sword had been remade, and there was a new Knight, and most likely Butters would have told how it happened. I don't think it is a secret.

Then there are a couple of ways that would be troubling if Harry had been paying attention fully to what Carlos said.  However his mind was a bit occupied at the moment with how to free Thomas.
1]  Carlos has taken up a coin because his body is so weakened he cannot do his job anymore.  He was in a wheel chair apparently, but no indication that he is. Or father the holder of the coin never made itself known.
2] Yes, Harry was being watched even then, or rather watched for.  He had been on the island for a year, so it was known when he left it with Mab.  If it was a veiled tail, they might have seen the jewel that Mab put in his ear to keep the pain at bay, and interpreted it as a "control" of sorts.  It would have seen the rest as well, and disciplined enough to merely watch and not get involved. 
3]  Carlos is infected with Nemesis, hope not, that well has been gone to a lot.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Or more odd, wasn't she sitting in the Munstermobile when Carlos and company stopped Harry?  Why didn't he just ask her then, if supposedly it was all friendly, which it wasn't.

One way that makes some sense, is one of the Wardens was involved with a mission that included
Butters, the new Holy Knight.  Then he would have gotten the information that the Sword had been remade, and there was a new Knight, and most likely Butters would have told how it happened. I don't think it is a secret.

Then there are a couple of ways that would be troubling if Harry had been paying attention fully to what Carlos said.  However his mind was a bit occupied at the moment with how to free Thomas.
1]  Carlos has taken up a coin because his body is so weakened he cannot do his job anymore.  He was in a wheel chair apparently, but no indication that he is. Or father the holder of the coin never made itself known.
2] Yes, Harry was being watched even then, or rather watched for.  He had been on the island for a year, so it was known when he left it with Mab.  If it was a veiled tail, they might have seen the jewel that Mab put in his ear to keep the pain at bay, and interpreted it as a "control" of sorts.  It would have seen the rest as well, and disciplined enough to merely watch and not get involved. 
3]  Carlos is infected with Nemesis, hope not, that well has been gone to a lot.

No, Harry was alone the first time he went to see Lara.

I wonder if Mab might have been watching Harry under a veil.  She might have watched the incident and then spread the story of how Nicodemus betrayed his word, betrayed the people he hired and how Murphy survived going one on one with him.  Of course, she would have done this through proxies and gave Marcone all of the credit so Nicodemus will focus any future revenge plans against the Baron of Chicago.  That would seem a very Mab thing to do; discredit and belittle an enemy and yet find a way to point their rage at someone else.

[Mira]

No, Harry was alone the first time he went to see Lara.

You're right, my bad.  Still Carlos could have asked about Murphy then.. He knew from the tracking dot that Harry had spent considerable time at her place.

I wonder if Mab might have been watching Harry under a veil.  She might have watched the incident and then spread the story of how Nicodemus betrayed his word, betrayed the people he hired and how Murphy survived going one on one with him.  Of course, she would have done this through proxies and gave Marcone all of the credit so Nicodemus will focus any future revenge plans against the Baron of Chicago.  That would seem a very Mab thing to do; discredit and belittle an enemy and yet find a way to point their rage at someone else.

She could have, but I am not quite sure what her gain would be.  Nic had already been discredited pretty badly by the end of Skin Game.  We also do not know if Carlos knows the full story, as in Nic going back on his word.  What we know, he knows, is Murphy received some major injuries fighting Nic.  All Carlos said was, "I heard.." Now Molly may even have told him all of this before their sex fiasco.  Which actually makes more sense that it coming from Butters.

[Bad Alias]

It might not be a secret in the supernatural community of Chicago or the Paranet. If it's not a secret in either, it wouldn't be weird for Carlos to hear as he's in L.A. where one of the heads of the Paranet is.

If it's only widely known in the Chicago supernatural community, Carlos has been keeping tab on the goings on of Chicago (meaning he's been suspicious of Harry), or he just talked to someone he knows in the Chicago supernatural community when he went out there for the peace talks.

[KurtinStGeorge]

You're right, my bad.  Still Carlos could have asked about Murphy then.. He knew from the tracking dot that Harry had spent considerable time at her place.

Good point.

She could have, but I am not quite sure what her gain would be.  Nic had already been discredited pretty badly by the end of Skin Game.  We also do not know if Carlos knows the full story, as in Nic going back on his word.  What we know, he knows, is Murphy received some major injuries fighting Nic.  All Carlos said was, "I heard.." Now Molly may even have told him all of this before their sex fiasco.  Which actually makes more sense that it coming from Butters.

I'm not sure about the part I highlighted.  I think Nicodemus was discredited because someone made some kind of public declaration; within the magical community, that Nicodemus had betrayed his word.  If Nicodemus comes out of the vault by himself, possibly with one or two allies, then no one can say what he did.  After Harry and company came out, I think that's when Mab put the word out.  Nic leaving by himself with Harry pursuing a few minutes later was all Mab needed to publicize Nic's betrayal.  I don't think Binder would have said anything because he just wanted his split.  Anna Valmont operates on the edges of the supernatural world, she's not a full member.  She would have relished the idea of discrediting Nicodemus, but I'm not sure she would know how to do it or if her word alone would suffice.  Michael wouldn't have lowered himself to do something like this and Harry was under the weather, so to speak.  That's why I think Mab put out the information to any and everyone in the supernatural world. 

[Mira]

I'm not sure about the part I highlighted.  I think Nicodemus was discredited because someone made some kind of public declaration; within the magical community, that Nicodemus had betrayed his word.  If Nicodemus comes out of the vault by himself, possibly with one or two allies, then no one can say what he did.  After Harry and company came out, I think that's when Mab put the word out.  Nic leaving by himself with Harry pursuing a few minutes later was all Mab needed to publicize Nic's betrayal.  I don't think Binder would have said anything because he just wanted his split.  Anna Valmont operates on the edges of the supernatural world, she's not a full member.  She would have relished the idea of discrediting Nicodemus, but I'm not sure she would know how to do it or if her word alone would suffice.  Michael wouldn't have lowered himself to do something like this and Harry was under the weather, so to speak.  That's why I think Mab put out the information to any and everyone in the supernatural world.

  I don't think she had to do anything to get the word out.  Evidently the supernatural grapevine is pretty strong.   The motive behind the robbery was pure vengeance for kidnapping Marcone years before, it was years in the making.  What is interesting about the little scene at the end of Skin Game between Marcone, Mab, Harry, and Molly is what Harry said about what went down in the bank itself.

Why the plans to Marcone's vault were available.Why the bodies got cleaned up, and
why the cops didn't crawl all over this thing when it was done.  Hell, they probably spinning the shoot-out and the explosions as some kind of terrorist attack.

Little off topic I realize, but in the light of Rudolph's I.A. investigation, I am thinking it had Marcone's finger prints all over it..  Back to regular programing..

Nic's set up,
Harry to Mab and Marcone;

"And you dealt him the worst pain you could imagine.  You took away his daughter.  No, you did worse---you made him do it himself." "Now he has lost his lieutenant," I continued.  "He's lost his squires.  When word gets out of his treachery, he'll lose his name.  No one will want to work with him.  From where you are standing, you've done worse than kill him.  You've wounded him, strangled his power, and left him to suffer."

I doubt that Mab was watching or that it was she that put the word out.  Now it might have been Marcone.  Or in a twisted way, it may have been Nic himself trying to rebuilt his rep.  He is down, but he isn't out, he can be just as cunning as Mab, and he is host to a master spy who hears everything, he might have learned just enough so that Nic could exploit prejudices in the Senior Council, he'd know of the sexual fiasco that Carlos suffered..

[Snark Knight]

All Carlos said was, "I heard.." Now Molly may even have told him all of this before their sex fiasco.  Which actually makes more sense that it coming from Butters.

Nah, that short story was lampshaded as being very shortly after she got the mantle. Early in Harry's time stuck on the island, not post-SG.

[Mira]

Nah, that short story was lampshaded as being very shortly after she got the mantle. Early in Harry's time stuck on the island, not post-SG.

Okay, couldn't remember the exact timeline.  Then it has to be Butters I think, he is new to the Holy Knight gig, and I can see him thinking there was no harm in talking about what happened at Michael's house.

[TrueMonk]

Of they want to really stamp on Nics reputation then telling how he almost got beaten by an entirely vanilla mortal tiny woman is not bad as a cherry on top. So I think the motive for Mab or Marcone is there.

[Mira]

Of they want to really stamp on Nics reputation then telling how he almost got beaten by an entirely vanilla mortal tiny woman is not bad as a cherry on top. So I think the motive for Mab or Marcone is there.

Except that is questionable.  Plenty of evidence that Nic let her almost beat him.  He was setting her up because he knew what she'd do once he surrendered.  And she did what he predicted, tried to execute him and break the Sword, which was his object.  He couldn't have been too beaten or hurt because once that happened he turned the tables and really beat the snot out of her, crippling her for the rest of her life.

[Arjan]

Except that is questionable.  Plenty of evidence that Nic let her almost beat him.  He was setting her up because he knew what she'd do once he surrendered.  And she did what he predicted, tried to execute him and break the Sword, which was his object.  He couldn't have been too beaten or hurt because once that happened he turned the tables and really beat the snot out of her, crippling her for the rest of her life.

That might be true but that is far from obvious. Mab and Marcone will give their own spin to it and nobody believes Nicodemus anyway.

[Mira]

That might be true but that is far from obvious. Mab and Marcone will give their own spin to it and nobody believes Nicodemus anyway.

There were other Denarians present,  and Nic's squires as well, they could have spread the story.