New short story

[Arjan]

Humans have all kinds of conflicting thoughts all the time and they mean all of them. In the end it is about the choices you make. Harry could have gone both ways which made it only more interesting for Uriel, he promotes free will and choices. But I don't think it was an accident that Sanya appeared just after Harry broke his back. It was one of those important choices.

[Bad Alias]

You mean in Summer Knight?  My point is in Dead Beat Harry mentions to Morgan that the Red Court were the cat's paw of some greater power.  What I am saying if one studies the events of the first four books of the series anyway,  the Black Council or what even Harry finally ends up calling them were manipulating a lot more than just the Red Court.

I agree that they were manipulating a lot. I disagree that they planned on Harry, either at all or adequately. I think it was Rashid who said that Harry was constantly "a thumb in the eye of the Adversary," and I believe it was in Cold Days.

I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.

Harry repeatedly makes choices that go against "let the world burn" in Changes. He had three choices for power, and he only took one. Probably the one that gave him the least power and most restrictions, especially in the short term. That was after a god told him that he, the god, wouldn't have enough power to challenge the LoON in their place of power.

[Mira]

I agree that they were manipulating a lot. I disagree that they planned on Harry, either at all or adequately. I think it was Rashid who said that Harry was constantly "a thumb in the eye of the Adversary," and I believe it was in Cold Days.

Oh I think they manipulated Harry, only he, being Harry, it always backfired..  Still they were very successful in using the Red Court to weaken the White Council.

[Dina]

Let me be clear. I never thought that Harry would think about burning the world himself, so the power thing is not relevant for me. I still think he loved his daughter too much, in a not normal way, but you are right Mira, in the end, Harry chose well.

Humans have all kinds of conflicting thoughts all the time and they mean all of them. In the end it is about the choices you make. Harry could have gone both ways which made it only more interesting for Uriel, he promotes free will and choices. But I don't think it was an accident that Sanya appeared just after Harry broke his back. It was one of those important choices.

I agree. And yes, I always said that the fire itself was not accident. I believe in part it was a test, if Harry had walked away and not risk anything for his neighborg, the WG would have retired any support for him. Harry paid a great price for it, but made the right choice. And in the end it set in motion many, many things (mostly in Mab's favor, so I bet she had something to do with the fire).

[morriswalters]

Of course the fire wasn't an accident, Harry had predicted that it was the way to attack him at home.  He's been attacked there multiple times.  He showed his concern for his neighbors by shoveling the walks.  In the end his neighbors paid the price for the things Harry considered important.  Just like Molly. The salient difference between Harry pre Changes and Harry post Changes is his acknowledgement of the fact he is a lightning rod and is a danger to those around him..

[Dina]

You are right but that is not what I meant. I believe it was specifically a test, I mean, if by chance it could have happened in a moment when no one would at risk (but Harry and Mister). I believe the moment where Harry had to choose (running or help) was the real point.

[Mira]

Of course the fire wasn't an accident, Harry had predicted that it was the way to attack him at home.  He's been attacked there multiple times.  He showed his concern for his neighbors by shoveling the walks.  In the end his neighbors paid the price for the things Harry considered important.  Just like Molly. The salient difference between Harry pre Changes and Harry post Changes is his acknowledgement of the fact he is a lightning rod and is a danger to those around him..

  Oh I think he always knew, Dead Beat when all those ghouls marched through his place, he had to have known..  However he had to live somewhere and it isn't an uncommon thing.  The Summer Knight in Summer Knight didn't live in an isolated tower somewhere and his young friends paid a price as well.  As for Molly, Lea put a guilt trip on him for not training her as she thought she should be trained.. But consider,  Harry didn't give her talent, she was born with it, her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.  Molly would have ended up without a head were it not for Harry.  He risked his own head to save her..  Yes, he may have made mistakes, but by the time of Changes she is an adult responsible for her own choices.

[Arjan]

  Oh I think he always knew, Dead Beat when all those ghouls marched through his place, he had to have known..  However he had to live somewhere and it isn't an uncommon thing.  The Summer Knight in Summer Knight didn't live in an isolated tower somewhere and his young friends paid a price as well.  As for Molly, Lea put a guilt trip on him for not training her as she thought she should be trained.. But consider,  Harry didn't give her talent, she was born with it, her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.  Molly would have ended up without a head were it not for Harry.  He risked his own head to save her..  Yes, he may have made mistakes, but by the time of Changes she is an adult responsible for her own choices.

Everyone is responsible for his own choices but that is not binary. Harry has responsibility too for her choices because of the master - pupil relationship. He bears responsibility too and he abused that position.

[Mira]

Everyone is responsible for his own choices but that is not binary. Harry has responsibility too for her choices because of the master - pupil relationship. He bears responsibility too and he abused that position.

  I think "abuse" is too strong of a word here.   It suggests that his mistakes were deliberate, they weren't.   I would submit that given his total lack of experience as a mentor/master to a young apprentice and the fact that he had had a very personal relationship with Molly and her family since her childhood, he should have been disqualified from the job in the first place. Let's not also forget that she was a budding warlock at the time,  while Harry has himself as a model here, he wasn't given any guidance on the matter from any experienced wizards, except that usually the attempt to reform, fails.  As a result no other wizard was willing to put his or her head on the line for her.  So it was step up or watch her lose her head.  He had no clue in her early childhood that she  had tallent or would someday be his apprentice, even if he was aware of her hero worship it is doubtful that he'd see that ever becoming a problem.  At most he saw it as a harmless childish crush that she'd grow out of eventually.   When she became his apprentice, he swiftly put an end to her romantic hopes, from his stand point at any rate.   His training in physical self defense as Lea pointed out, that he was too soft and over protective her was a mistake.  His motives were more misguided from his reaction to his own training from Justin, but not deliberate abuse of her.   On the other hand the mental defense training he did with her saved her ultimately from the Corpse Taker.  So yes,  Harry has to take some responsibility for her choices, Yes, he made some mistakes with her, some fairly serious, but it doesn't amount to abuse.

[Bad Alias]

Oh I think they manipulated Harry, only he, being Harry, it always backfired..  Still they were very successful in using the Red Court to weaken the White Council.

That's what I meant by not adequately manipulating Harry. I'm still unsure if they intended Harry to become involved in every case. It certainly wasn't Vittorio's intent for Harry to become involved in White Night. Lara did intend Harry to get involved. Did the manipulator intend for it's agent to not involve Harry relying on Lara to involve Harry? But it wasn't Lara who got Harry involved. It was Madrigal.

her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.

Michael had no idea about Charity's talent. It's likely he still doesn't know. I'm not sure Charity can be blamed because wizards don't even really know how someone gets there abilities.

[Arjan]

  I think "abuse" is too strong of a word here.   It suggests that his mistakes were deliberate, they weren't.   I would submit that given his total lack of experience as a mentor/master to a young apprentice and the fact that he had had a very personal relationship with Molly and her family since her childhood, he should have been disqualified from the job in the first place. Let's not also forget that she was a budding warlock at the time,  while Harry has himself as a model here, he wasn't given any guidance on the matter from any experienced wizards, except that usually the attempt to reform, fails.  As a result no other wizard was willing to put his or her head on the line for her.  So it was step up or watch her lose her head.  He had no clue in her early childhood that she  had tallent or would someday be his apprentice, even if he was aware of her hero worship it is doubtful that he'd see that ever becoming a problem.  At most he saw it as a harmless childish crush that she'd grow out of eventually.   When she became his apprentice, he swiftly put an end to her romantic hopes, from his stand point at any rate.   His training in physical self defense as Lea pointed out, that he was too soft and over protective her was a mistake.  His motives were more misguided from his reaction to his own training from Justin, but not deliberate abuse of her.   On the other hand the mental defense training he did with her saved her ultimately from the Corpse Taker.  So yes,  Harry has to take some responsibility for her choices, Yes, he made some mistakes with her, some fairly serious, but it doesn't amount to abuse.

The abuse was using her for his suicide. Taking her to Chichen Itza probably counts as well because as her mentor he should do what is best for her, that was his responsibility.

But that became worse because he was not there to help her handle it and she had to hide because he disappeared.

[Mira]

The abuse was using her for his suicide. Taking her to Chichen Itza probably counts as well because as her mentor he should do what is best for her, that was his responsibility.

But that became worse because he was not there to help her handle it and she had to hide because he disappeared.

  Harry's own state of mind wasn't good at the time, so it is hard to hold him completely responsible.  Also Molly was of age, also considering the religion she was raised in, she knew it was wrong to assist, yet she did.  He didn't make her do it.   People who are about to take their own lives cannot see beyond their own pain.  Plus there is a little matter of a fallen angel egging him on, he cannot be held responsible for it.  If you will remember this is why Uriel was able to balance the scales.

[Dina]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen and everything in between. I am resurrecting this thread because I think it is an interesting reading after BG. Also because of something about the short story. I will spoiler tag it because it has to be with BG and the thread title does not indicate that.

(click to show/hide)

Viti says that Marcone is bad, is dangerous and he can kill Grey. I think now we know she was not talking about what we thought, vanilla man doing extraordinary things but Denarian. And I found that very interesting. Also, apparently Grey cannot detect the Fallen in him

Oh, and just a comment. It is relatively easy to make the decision of saving children. As others stated here before, it's not such a great moral thing. I believe the interesting part is that while Grey or Marcone would probably go to some extremes to save children, Harry would probably go to great extremes to save any of them (Marcone and Grey, I mean). And I think in his inner heart Grey wants to be that sort of person, and he is trying. As always, Harry is probably going to influence him to go to that side. Marcone, on the other hand, seems to have decided to go the dark side. But, as I said before, I still see hope of redemption for him. And I still think Marcone himself hopes that, if he ever goes truly, truly dark, Harry will stop him.

[Bad Alias]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen and everything in between.

That made me laugh.

The problem with Marcone is that we don't see him being a bad guy. We just know he is one. We don't see him shaking down a mom and pop business or killing innocent witnesses. The only thing we see is him being aggressively libertarian. So it's easy to like him because the evil stuff he does is "out of sight, out of mind."

[Dina]

Yes, which I think is in part due to Harry's denial. He does not want to think in Marcone as such a bad guy.
Also, I did a new thread about this, as apparently nobody has read my post. So if you want to move the conversation there, it may be good.
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53933.15.html