"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?

[Dina]

I've meant trusting Harry.

[forumghost]

Right yeah.

Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.

Like C'mon:

Carlos: "Are you fucking a wampire?"
Harry: "How Dare you?" *Start's preparing for a fight*
Also Harry: *Is seen fucking her by several people not long after*

Harry: *Attacks Carlos and runs off right before the Fomor show up, but won't tell anyone where he went or why*
Also Harry: "WAAAHHHHH! Nobody trusts me!"

[Dina]

I agree about the details but I don't see Ramirez trying to trust Harry. Only "saying" that.

[KurtinStGeorge]

quote author=forumghost link=topic=53912.msg2338354#msg2338354 date=1604107154]
Right yeah.

Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.

Like C'mon:

Carlos: "Are you fucking a wampire?"
Harry: "How Dare you?" *Start's preparing for a fight*
Also Harry: *Is seen fucking her by several people not long after*

Harry: *Attacks Carlos and runs off right before the Fomor show up, but won't tell anyone where he went or why*
Also Harry: "WAAAHHHHH! Nobody trusts me!"
[/quote]

I agree about the details but I don't see Ramirez trying to trust Harry. Only "saying" that.

I agree with Dina here.  The way I read it Carlos was really saying, "We know you're under the Raith's power, let us help you." 

From Warden Ramirez perspective this makes some sense.  If the Wardens file reports or if Captain Luccio spoke to Carlos about the last time she went to Chicago, he could have learned that Luccio saw Harry coming out of a known White Court building (Club Zero) and accepted a ride from Thomas Raith.  When Carlos worked with Harry in White Night, Harry had a lot of information on the internal political workings of White Court; probably much more information than anyone else on the White Council.  If the comic book story War Cry is cannon; and I have no idea if the comic book stories are, Thomas helped Harry, Carlos, Wild Bill and Yoshino when they were fighting the Red Court in that story.  And, it didn't help that when Carlos came up to Harry on the beach that Thomas was with him.  Finally, after what Molly did to him, Carlos had to be afraid of what being associated with Winter was doing or had done to Harry.

When Harry was stopped leaving the Raith manor, it was clear that Carlos and the rest of the Wardens; except perhaps Chandler, assumed the worst about Harry.  Frankly, Harry shouldn't have been surprised if he thought about it for a while.  Having said all that, I'm not saying Carlos Ramirez was completely in the right.  Earlier that morning on the beach, when Thomas offered to leave, Carlos should have thanked him and then brought up his concerns to Harry in private.  Instead he went straight into total distrust mode by talking about the peace talks while planting the tracking spell.  In fact, he planted the tracking spell before he started talking about the Fomor and the peace talks.

In BG, when Carlos talked to Harry when he was entering Marcone's castle, he didn't bring up the illusion that people would have taking about, he just asked where Harry had been.  Harry did say that he had to "Had to go grab some tools," but he could have elaborated a little more without giving much away."  Something as simple as, "I was out on the street and saw Ethniu roll up, so I knew I had to get some heavier than usual tools to work with."  However, Harry was in a somewhat difficult position.  He didn't want to even think about the Athame he was carrying and he believes there is another Black Council member working within the White Council.  Beyond Ebenezer, he doesn't know who he can trust on the Council and his relationship with Eb at that time was a complete mess.

Finally, as I stated in another post, when Harry is telling Carlos what a real threat is, he was speaking hypothetically.  Carlos probably took it as a genuine threat, especially the part about Molly taking issue with the Council going after Harry.  Carlos probably saw that as a personal threat made by Harry expressly aimed at himself. 

I don't think that what transpired between Harry and Carlos is all about who was right and who was wrong.  It's more about a lack of communication because of Harry's general isolation, miscommunication, the general attitude of most wizards to jealously hold on to secrets combined with legitimate concerns on both sides which were exaggerated by the issues I mentioned before that.

[Mira]

Like I said in my edit, Carlos kept trying to trust Harry, but that's kinda hard when Harry not only refuses to trust him, but is constantly acting dodgy as fuck, right after demanding the benefit of the doubt.

Did he though?  You don't secretly put a tracking device on someone you trust.  It is like wearing a wire and going to have a friendly chat with a "friend," and all the while you are there to entrap or catch them saying something incriminating.  Once Harry realized that, any chance for trust and actually talking to Carlos went out the window. 

"Wow," I said in a level tone.  "Mistrusting me right from the get-go, huh?"

The thing is that dot was put on Harry before Thomas tried to kill anyone, and at the same time Carlos was asking Harry to be part of his security team.  Apparently he was ordered by someone to do it, and most likely the faction of the Senior Council who want to get rid of Harry.  And given his recent experience with Molly, Carlos went along..

He shrugged.  "I was pretty clear about my intentions," he said. "If you don't want others to think you're shady, man, maybe you shouldn't be doing shady things at shady times with shady people."

Huh? WTF?  No, Carlos at the beach did not come off as someone who was suspicious of Harry, or so much so he'd sneak a tracking dot on him.  As far as Thomas goes, Carlos knows him actually fought along side of him in White Night.  Since that was before any assassination attempts, he knew at the very least Harry and him were friends.  Harry isn't running with more "shady" people than he was before, unless you call the Alphas shady, two Holy Knights and a retired Holy Knight, and a former cop shady.  No, someone got to Carlos, that and what happened with Molly really screwed him up and someone was able to turn him against Harry. 

I agree with Dina here.  The way I read it Carlos was really saying, "We know you're under the Raith's power, let us help you." 

The thing is, I doubt that they really wanted to help him..  They wanted evidence to get rid of him..
What says this isn't exactly on the up and up is the silent warning Harry got from Chandler. 

Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.

Which considering Chandler's closeness to Luccio, may have been a warning from her.  It also goes along with what Eb was trying to warn Harry about after they returned to the apartment and had pancakes.  So serious, that Eb was in a total panic about it, I doubt even if Harry had tried to glad hand some of the members it would have done any good.  Big problem, Eb never explained who it was or what exactly they were after except the usual.  But the long and the short, after realizing that Carlos had put that dot on him, there was no way he could trust him with anything. 

I don't think that what transpired between Harry and Carlos is all about who was right and who was wrong.  It's more about a lack of communication because of Harry's general isolation, miscommunication, the general attitude of most wizards to jealously hold on to secrets combined with legitimate concerns on both sides which were exaggerated by the issues I mentioned before that.

No, not in this case.  Yes, communication or lack there of, goodness knows, has gotten Harry in trouble with friends etc before, but not this time.  Carlos did communicate quite clearly with that tracking dot, he was telling Harry, "you're a suspect.."  When he says, "talk to me.."  He is saying, "confess.."

[TheCuriousFan]

I kinda feel like he did that with Molly, and almost got his spine ripped out for his trouble.

Like, Carlos was being an irrational idiot and lashing out at the end of BG. But you know what? Harry fucking deserved it.

He gave him a chance to try and assuage some doubts outside Lara's in PT, and when Ramirez asked a very reasonable "tell us who you slept with so that we can confirm you aren't Being enthralled by the White Court"

Harry immediately responds by telling him to go fuck himself, and then begins grounding his staff and readying his shield.

Then Harry is seen being buddy-buddy with Lara, and even sleeping with her.

Then he attack Ramirez about 5 seconds before the Peace Talks go to hell.

Then he disappears right before the fight and refuses to tell anyone where he went.

Like, Harry couldn't have acted more suspicious if he was actively trying.

Pretty much, that repetition of Carlos trying to talk to Harry is probably intended to signify that Harry's fucking up in how he deals with Carlos.

[Dina]

Yes, Mira. On the beach, it sounded like Ramirez were saying "The old people in the Council mistrusts you but we youngsters know you, have you back and I want you on my team". And then, Harry found about the dot and translated all that to "The old people in the Council mistrusts you and they may be right, so I want you on my team so I can have you under surveillance". And things were down from there.
I do blame Harry for part of that, but not for all. For instance, let's go to that first day. They know Thomas is a friend of Harry, from before he became the WK. They know what he did to Etri (Austri, in fact). He saw him, Justine and then Lara. All that says that he is trying to help Thomas. But before Thomas did that, Harry was at his house, spoke with Eb (which Ramirez may or not know) and then spend all the day at Murphy's place. So...perhaps sex with Lara is not your first idea? Perhaps he had sex with Murph? Perhaps he was to visit Lara not for sex but for finding a way to help his friend? Because Harry helps his friends.

Writing this, I was reminded of another thing. Eb told Dresden that making him the liaison was part of a setup to prevent him to shake some hands, speak with people and go stronger for the general vote.  Probably a Black Council setup. And Carlos told him that it has been his own idea. So Harry had reason to be wary from him before Thomas killed people, before Lara had been granted wishes and before the 4 wardens ambushed him. Yes, Harry is not the most gentle character but I understand raising his temper. And his suspicion that perhaps not Ramirez himself but someone may be pulling his strings.

[The_Sibelis]

Pretty much, that repetition of Carlos trying to talk to Harry is probably intended to signify that Harry's fucking up in how he deals with Carlos.

in line with my earlier comment... Didn't he deny Carlos 3 times? Once on the beach, once in the road and again in the stairwell?

[Dina]

Yes.

I've been thinking. What exactly is the Council problem by the time of the tracking device (before Thomas attack)? I mean, why they intend to separate him from the Council? He has been friends with Thomas for ages, and nobody said too much. That has not got worse (between Murphy and Maggie I don't think he has been all the time with Thomas). He has not been visiting Lara everyday or anything. He had been spending time with Murphy, a trustworthy vanilla. And yes, he is the WK but he has been the WK since Changes, and yes, he went back from the death, but that was in CD. What got worse in the last couple of months, between SG and PT?
So, if the problem is his links with the White Court, there are as bad as ever, not worse. And if the problem is Mab, as I said before, breaking his links with the Council gives HER the freedom to do things with Harry that she couldn't before. So, I have a suspicion, that the real problem is that they discovered that he has the objects and he is taking true control of Demonreach. All the rest are excuses.

[Mira]

Yes.

I've been thinking. What exactly is the Council problem by the time of the tracking device (before Thomas attack)? I mean, why they intend to separate him from the Council? He has been friends with Thomas for ages, and nobody said too much. That has not got worse (between Murphy and Maggie I don't think he has been all the time with Thomas). He has not been visiting Lara everyday or anything. He had been spending time with Murphy, a trustworthy vanilla. And yes, he is the WK but he has been the WK since Changes, and yes, he went back from the death, but that was in CD. What got worse in the last couple of months, between SG and PT?
So, if the problem is his links with the White Court, there are as bad as ever, not worse. And if the problem is Mab, as I said before, breaking his links with the Council gives HER the freedom to do things with Harry that she couldn't before. So, I have a suspicion, that the real problem is that they discovered that he has the objects and he is taking true control of Demonreach. All the rest are excuses.

Yes, the only one from the White Court Harry has been seeing on a regular basis is Thomas, but they knew that.  The thing about the beach conversation is while you could be right about what Carlos was implying about the Council, why did he think he had to imply?  It was just he and Harry, Thomas went to one side because it was Warden business, and I imagine if he wanted there was a way to keep Thomas from hearing what was said.  The only vibe I got from the conversation is it didn't go beyond the usual suspicions that some on the Senior Council have had about Harry since he became a wizard, so why would Harry suddenly be alarmed or alerted?  I don't think they know about the objects or shouldn't know, unless...  Oh my, Carlos has a coin, knows at least about the Grail and what that mission was about. 

in line with my earlier comment... Didn't he deny Carlos 3 times? Once on the beach, once in the road and again in the stairwell?

On the beach Carlos never really asks that question, it is all very friendly.  On the road after Harry found out about the dot, he wasn't going to have any friendly chat with Carlos.  The only way that might have happened is if Carlos had said he was sorry for doing that to a friend, but he had orders from X,Y,orZ to do it.  In the stairwell, not a time to talk, too much going down.

[Arjan]

They think he has they eye of balor. It was smart of Harry to spread doubt about that but the white council was not at the meeting when he did so.

The white council is crumbling. It’s most senior and powerful members get too old and that can cause serious problems if the tier below them is considerably weaker what I suspect.

It is also divided. The merlin uses tricks like waiting until members are injured to push things through. I suspect Harry has still some support within the council and will keep it if he behaves reasonably.

It is quite possible that the councils foreign policy, including their handling of Harry, is mainly a product of internal considerations and has less to do with Harry than we think it does. We get a Harry centric narrative after all.

[Mira]

It is quite possible that the councils foreign policy, including their handling of Harry, is mainly a product of internal considerations and has less to do with Harry than we think it does. We get a Harry centric narrative after all.

Quite possible, it wouldn't be the first time they were willing to throw Harry under the bus for foreign policy considerations.  In a lot of ways this was a replay of Summer Knight, while they didn't go so far as wanting him thrown out of the Council, they wanted him demoted back to apprentice, and or handed over to the Red Court to prevent a war.  Interesting that they also took the vote when Eb and Listens to Wind were in surgery, and no doubt Rashid was very busy at the Gates.  Not known is how Martha Liberty voted, or if she voted, or Christos for that matter, did the battle change their minds about Harry one way or the other?

It is also divided. The merlin uses tricks like waiting until members are injured to push things through. I suspect Harry has still some support within the council and will keep it if he behaves reasonably.

Where was the Merlin?  I was surprised when he didn't show up for something as important as the peace talks with the Fomor.  I wonder if the fact that he made no appearance at all in either book points to something very wrong in the Senior Council?  Is there or was there a coup with in the Senior Council, the Merlin reduced to figure head and someone unexpected pulling the strings?  We all like to suspect Christos or Ancient Mai, but what if is Klaus the Tinker?  The silent member of the Senior Council quietly undermining everything and everybody when eyes are directed elsewhere.

They think he has they eye of balor. It was smart of Harry to spread doubt about that but the white council was not at the meeting when he did so.

The question there is, why wasn't a representative from the White Council there?  Were they not invited or have they withdrawn from the Accords?  Or it might not mean all that much, the Ghouls weren't there either.

[Avernite]

The question there is, why wasn't a representative from the White Council there?  Were they not invited or have they withdrawn from the Accords?  Or it might not mean all that much, the Ghouls weren't there either.

Harry did spell out a reason, barring further feedback I'm taking his canonical musing as the truth: the Accords fear open war with mankind and are thus not inviting representatives of 'pretty much mankind's defenders'.

Harry also spells out that this is a silly approach and if they instead included mankind they might more or less avoid open war... but then some of those guys are predators on humans, and as wolves, lions and tigers can attest: humans don't treat threatening predators kindly.

[Dina]

About why there was not a Council representative in the final meeting, is like Avernite says.

They think he has they eye of balor. It was smart of Harry to spread doubt about that but the white council was not at the meeting when he did so.

But I was talking before that, in the beach, when Ramirez a) told Harry about the vote (later confirmed by Eb) and b) put a tracking spell on him.

[Mira]

Harry did spell out a reason, barring further feedback I'm taking his canonical musing as the truth: the Accords fear open war with mankind and are thus not inviting representatives of 'pretty much mankind's defenders'.

Harry also spells out that this is a silly approach and if they instead included mankind they might more or less avoid open war... but then some of those guys are predators on humans, and as wolves, lions and tigers can attest: humans don't treat threatening predators kindly.

Yes, I was aware of what Harry said about open war on mankind.  Ironically he is deemed a threat, yet he managed to negotiate a solution for the present anyway.  Interesting, we didn't hear a peep out of Marcone when war was more or less spoken off as an option against his fellow humans.  In fact, he argued against making any amends under the guest law to the citizens of Chicago who lost so much.  Namshiel in full charge now?  Is his agenda different from Nic/Andriel?  Because I seem to remember, perhaps in Skin Game Nic claiming their aims for mankind wasn't that different from Harry's aims. 

But I was talking before that, in the beach, when Ramirez a) told Harry about the vote (later confirmed by Eb) and b) put a tracking spell on him.

No, I just checked, Carlos didn't say a word about the vote to Harry.  He just talked about the peace talks and that the Council expected him to be their liaison with Winter.  Harry even asks Carlos if he is sure he wants him on his security team, and Carlos said he did.  They fist bumped, that must have been when he planted the tracking dot.