"Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?

[KurtinStGeorge]

In fairness to Carlos, there's really no reason for not explaining that the extreme exercise is precisely to keep the mantle exhausted, when he knows damn well that Carlos is wondering about whether he's being overtaken by it. Maybe he'd believe it, maybe not, but creating doubt about the "he's already a monster" narrative is worth sharing something harmless.

That sounds like a good idea, but think it through.  After hearing Harry's explanation, and assuming he believed it, it might be logical for Carlos to think to himself, "Damn, Harry has to exercise like some caged criminal; make that super steroided up caged criminal, just to keep from going over the edge.  It's worse than I thought.  At best, Harry is a time bomb.  At worst, he's already cracked and doesn't know it."

[vincentric]

Carlos is just making bad decisions because of PTSD.

When he sees Harry on the beach, he's still recovering from his injuries from Cold Case. Then when he confronts Harry on the road, Harry threatens him with Molly. Harry isn't blameless here but he he the bullseye on Carlo's damaged psyche unknowingly and it makes Carlos react to an extreme.

Then at the end of Peace Talks, Carlos is dealing with Harry's use of him as a distraction. Embarrassing any man is playing with fire, but especially so with Hispanics. Then at the funeral, Carlos is dealing with the deaths of Wild Bill, Chandler and Yoshimo and feels that his only other friend, Harry, has betrayed his trust.

A lot of the tension in this dynamic would be helped(not solved) if they could rewind after the big battle over a beer but both have duties that keep them apart and the ill feelings just fester.

[Bad Alias]

The point is, ...

Once again, that's your point. Not the point. You're not addressing the point others are raising.

[Mira]

Once again, that's your point. Not the point. You're not addressing the point others are raising.

I am addressing my point...

That sounds like a good idea, but think it through.  After hearing Harry's explanation, and assuming he believed it, it might be logical for Carlos to think to himself, "Damn, Harry has to exercise like some caged criminal; make that super steroided up caged criminal, just to keep from going over the edge.  It's worse than I thought.  At best, Harry is a time bomb.  At worst, he's already cracked and doesn't know it."

Yes, and a friend might ask those questions to Harry. Carlos did not.  Actually when you think of it, it doesn't matter what Carlos thinks, he is following someone's orders to track Harry.  This is before the crap hit the fan with Thomas, but it is clear, and when Eb shows up it is confirmed, someone wants Harry out of the White Council.  Carlos has been sent, undercover you might say to gather evidence.  That is the only way to explain a tracker ink dot secretly placed on Harry's wrist.

Carlos is just making bad decisions because of PTSD.

I won't disagree with that, but he is also following someone's orders.  His PTSD, has made it easier by who ever gave them to convince him.

When he sees Harry on the beach, he's still recovering from his injuries from Cold Case. Then when he confronts Harry on the road, Harry threatens him with Molly. Harry isn't blameless here but he he the bullseye on Carlo's damaged psyche unknowingly and it makes Carlos react to an extreme.

Harry was reacting to the fact that his friend had put a secret track on him.   No, Harry didn't threaten him with Molly on the road.  It did piss him off that they put a track on him, in ink like Peabody, then accused him of being under White Court influence.

Then at the end of Peace Talks, Carlos is dealing with Harry's use of him as a distraction. Embarrassing any man is playing with fire, but especially so with Hispanics. Then at the funeral, Carlos is dealing with the deaths of Wild Bill, Chandler and Yoshimo and feels that his only other friend, Harry, has betrayed his trust.

I agree with him dealing with the fact that Harry embarrassed him.  However when he put that tracker dot on Harry, Carlos betrayed Harry's trust.

[KurtinStGeorge]

No, Harry didn't threaten him with Molly on the road. 

Yes, I agree with you, but you just gave my an idea.  In their final conversation, when Harry was demonstrating to Carlos what a real threat is, one of the things Harry said was:

"The Winter Lady might not take it kindly, either, (The Council going after Harry.) and you saw what she's capable of doing."
Carlos cheek twitched and he could only meekly answer:
"Yes, I did." 
Harry then finished by saying:
That was a threat, Carlos..."

Harry was referring to Molly's scary performance during the battle.  He doesn't know what Molly did to Carlos, but Carlos doesn't know that Harry doesn't know.  For all Carlos Ramirez knows, Molly may have joked with Harry about how she first came on to virgin Warden and then tore him apart.  From Carlos' perspective Harry may have just made a very personal threat against him to have Molly finish the job. 

The PTSD Carlos Ramirez is suffering from doesn't come from being crippled by the Fomor in some random firefight, it comes from being crippled by Molly.  And what Molly did to Warden Ramirez didn't happen in a firefight or battle; from Carlos' perspective it was an unprovoked near instantaneous slaughter which he somehow survived, and that Carlos couldn't have stopped even if he had seen it coming.  There's something that would give anyone nightmares.

I'm feeling a little more sympathy for Carlos at the moment.  Whoever gave Warden Ramirez his orders didn't have to do much, or any, manipulation to get him to place the tracking spell on Harry.  They would have to be seen that Carlos was primed to go in that direction from the physical and mental punishment he had suffered at the Winter Lady's hands.  Thinking this through, I believe the gulf between Harry and his former friend is far wider than I originally thought when I first read that exchange.

 

[TrueMonk]

There is no doubt it will be really interesting when the events of cold case is explicitly mentioned in the series. It allmost has to happen at some point, but there are also very good reasons why no-one is going to talk about it.

I definitely thought Harry subconsciously evened the scales with Ramirez and that it was super cool :-)

[TheCuriousFan]

One thing I thought of, Carlos put a spell on Harry. Harry finds a reason, a valid one perhaps, of putting one on Carlos. Felt like there was a hidden fae balance thing going on with that one. It's not something I feel Harry would so lightly to a friend... But Carlos had earned it.

Since that also popped up in Harry's dialogue during the Rudolph chase it's probably one of the less obvious ways he's being affected by the mantle.

[happyelf]

The fact is there is plenty of reasons outside looking in for suspecting Harry associates with White Court Vampires, Winter knight,  never shares info fully ext and plus after Carlos ordeal he is going to be naturally suspicious of Fae and yes he probably does think Harry knows plus Harry isn’t the worlds greatest friend he wasn’t in a rush to try to find out what had happened to Carlos and yes Carlos put a tracking spell on him but there is a history of compromised wardens which again outside looking in looks an awful lot like Harry.

[Mira]

The fact is there is plenty of reasons outside looking in for suspecting Harry associates with White Court Vampires, Winter knight,  never shares info fully ext and plus after Carlos ordeal he is going to be naturally suspicious of Fae and yes he probably does think Harry knows plus Harry isn’t the worlds greatest friend he wasn’t in a rush to try to find out what had happened to Carlos and yes Carlos put a tracking spell on him but there is a history of compromised wardens which again outside looking in looks an awful lot like Harry.

Or is Carlos compromised?  Whether or not Harry was in a rush to find out what happened to Carlos. A couple of things, do Wardens do police reports?  How did Carlos explain what happened to him?  So I would be shocked if there isn't an "official" explanation for the injuries Carlos received.  Why would Harry have reason to question that?  If Carlos isn't telling the truth about what happened, why would Harry disbelieve him?  I wouldn't be shocked either if it was in fact Eb who ordered Carlos to put the tracking dot on Harry.

[Arjan]

I did not hear Carlos was nemesis infected yet. Or maybe a denarian coin? 

[Telynn]

I did not hear Carlos was nemesis infected yet. Or maybe a denarian coin? 

I think that with everything that has happened to him recently, he is a useful tool for the 'black council'.  I'm sure whoever it is was whispering some bad things about Harry in his ear to egg him on.

[Mira]

I think that with everything that has happened to him recently, he is a useful tool for the 'black council'.  I'm sure whoever it is was whispering some bad things about Harry in his ear to egg him on.

I agree, I think that is the most likely case. 

[Bad Alias]

A couple of things, do Wardens do police reports?

Yes. They had police style reports about LaForte's death. I don't know how routine such reports are, or if it's just for big things like the murder of a member of a Senior Council. Harry did send in and get reports, so reports of some type are routine. I don't see why they'd have a bunch of different style of reports, so I would imagine they're all "police" style. They question is how routine and detailed they are.

[Dina]

I've noticed that there is a moment when Harry has the doubt that Molly had become a monster and he decides to trust her. I wish Carlos did the same. I agree with many of you saying that Carlos had reasons to mistrust, and also about his PTSD but I don't think I ever forgive him for saying the line about the 60000 deaths. Also, for not saying as much as "sorry" about Murphy.

Yes, Carlos is in pain for the other wardens but Harry is too and he is grieving for Murphy. And Carlos just ignored it.

I don't know. Harry definitely could have done things much better with Ramirez, but his insistence in "talk to me" as if he (Ramirez) was not a loyal warden is annoying. He knows how Harry feels about the Council, that is not monster Harry. Is Harry, his friend. Monster Harry would probably be more polite about the WC 

And again, I don't understand the WC. While he was a warden, Mab was constrained for her respect to Harry's previous commitments. Now, he is free and Mab can use him much more.

Again encore: I need to know if Ramirez knows about Maggie.

[forumghost]

I've noticed that there is a moment when Harry has the doubt that Molly had become a monster and he decides to trust her. I wish Carlos did the same.

I kinda feel like he did that with Molly, and almost got his spine ripped out for his trouble.

Like, Carlos was being an irrational idiot and lashing out at the end of BG. But you know what? Harry fucking deserved it.

He gave him a chance to try and assuage some doubts outside Lara's in PT, and when Ramirez asked a very reasonable "tell us who you slept with so that we can confirm you aren't Being enthralled by the White Court"

Harry immediately responds by telling him to go fuck himself, and then begins grounding his staff and readying his shield.

Then Harry is seen being buddy-buddy with Lara, and even sleeping with her.

Then he attack Ramirez about 5 seconds before the Peace Talks go to hell.

Then he disappears right before the fight and refuses to tell anyone where he went.

Like, Harry couldn't have acted more suspicious if he was actively trying.