Mac's True Nature (spoilers for BG)

[Avernite]

The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.

Maybe Mac was just on vacation for a century, and Harry and the placard reminded him holiday was over. Mab would consider a century of vacation 'active'

[Mira]

The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.

Yup, and isn't he the archangel that helps with Michael's safe room?

[Griffyn612]

The main argument against it is - I think fact that Mab lists Rapahel as one of active archangels.

She says "the Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands."

The theory is that Raphael gave his Grace to Merlin, who created Demonreach across space and time and dimensions, and Merlin then put the Grace into a vessel later named Alfred, leaving Raphael in the transubstantiated form of Mac, who made his choice and only watches now as Alfred fulfills the role of Demon Binder.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

The theory is that Raphael gave his Grace to Merlin, who created Demonreach across space and time and dimensions, and Merlin then put the Grace into a vessel later named Alfred, leaving Raphael in the transubstantiated form of Mac, who made his choice and only watches now as Alfred fulfills the role of Demon Binder.

This is extremely stretching things out I must say.
Such playing with reality should send Rafael to Hell, not to Irish Pub

[Griffyn612]

This is extremely stretching things out I must say.
Such playing with reality should send Rafael to Hell, not to Irish Pub

What do you mean?  Raphael is really only known for a couple things. The big one is, at the command of TWG, creating an earthly prison to hold Azazel until the end of days.  That fits pretty well with Demonreach.

The other things he's known for are more mundane, with him helping humans bind a demon and heal illness using things that might be interpreted as spells and potions.  If these were done post-transubstantiation, it would fit with the WoJ that Mac has never done anything other mortals couldn't do (paraphrased).

The hangups are A) a necessary interpretation of Mab's meaning, and B) Lash's identification of the protection spells being the work of 'Raphael or one of his lieutenants'. I think the former is possible because Mab would totally be the type to care more about the mantle than the bearer, and the latter is explainable as it being a lieutenant did it, or Mac did it, or Lash including Raphael as a possible source because she doesn't know his status (which would have been post-Fall).

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.

The big one is, at the command of TWG, creating an earthly prison to hold Azazel until the end of days.  That fits pretty well with Demonreach.

If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)

[Griffyn612]

The thing is also Mac is identified as the Watcher by Sharkface. And Watcher is nickname/title Mab gives to Uriel. Which would points to angel of Uriel's cohort.

Mab calls Uriel the Watchman, not watcher.  And the Book of Enoch, which is what talks about the Watcher angels, also specially refers to Raphael and other non-Fallen angels as watchers. So it would seem that Raphael was also, at minimum, involved with the Watchers. Most angels involved with earth probably are.

If we count Ethiopian canon yes. But if there is equivalent of it - I think it's simply Hell as prison for Fallen Angels, and non angelic-spirits swayed to Lucifer's side. And this can be made by Raphael.
(Now of course there can be link - like Demonreach being mini-Hell because Merlin copied Rafaels wards.)

Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).

It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Hell is a place for Lucifer's Fallen, which occurred at the dawn of humanity. It was later in human history that more angels (Grigori, watcher angels) went to earth and frolicked with humans. It was that later event described in the Book of Enoch, which is when Raphael was commanded to make the prison in Dudael, a desert on earth (not hell) to hold Azazel (and likely other Grigori as well).

It can be debated that it's another realm, but the text says he was to make a hole in the desert and covering him in rocks. That seems specific to earth terrain, and not a pre-existing place like hell.

Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)

[Griffyn612]

Indeed, but Enochian canon is used only by Tewahedo Church, unless there's some WOJ I forgotten I see no big reason to assume Jim somehow uses more specifically this specific apocrypha.
Problem with angels in The Dresden Files doing such shit is - they are beings literally greater than Earth. Ethniu and some Old Gods in Demonreach are all in terms of sheer power noobs compared to angels. (But then of course we also see Ethniu calling Uriel/sword angel a traitor which points to some interesting possibilities - maybe Titans were angels that sort of lost some power to walk among mortals, and they went on power trip because of this.)

I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse.  It's either from the Book of Enoch or the Book of Tobit.  Both reference Raphael binding a demon/angel in the desert. Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics.  I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic. Grigori from Enoch have also become common in the urban fantasy genre, so he could be familiar with both stories to some degree prior to research for the books.

As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons.  We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I'm not sure what the source of JB's nickname for Raphael would be, for the Dresdenverse.

Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?

Neither is canon for Protestants, and Tobit is deuterocanonical at best for Catholics.

Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.

As for Ethniu's comment, the nephilim of Enoch would be an easy explanation for ties between the pantheons. We've also seen reference to cross-pantheon overlap with the disobedient messengers that became Skinwalkers. That story is similar to the Grigori, with "messengers" defying the rules of the higher powers and ending up on Earth amongst humans.

Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.

I can't recall what JB's denominational exposure is/was, but it may have been Catholic.

I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD

[Griffyn612]

Well dunno maybe what happens in Book of Tobit?

Deuterocanon is in at least part of Protestant translations in a section of Apocrypha. And deuterocanon is still very much canon for Catholic, Orthodox and other ancient denominations. For all account much less exotic source than Enoch.


Interesting option (I think nephilim are on table - I mean Enoch aside - they are part of Noah story).
If Ethniu was scion (or at least in Balor was) then maybe some of such scions could well - go up and become full fledged angels and thus serve Creator while scions in titanic form were trying to play gods for mortals.

I think he was raised as some sort of Baptist so I guess neither deuterocanon nor Enoch.
Still he clearly has some soft spot for Catholics, considering Russian Orthodoxy is expositure of Cthulhu in his books XD

I think it's possible "Demon Binder" could be limited to just the Tobit story, but I'm guessing JB is aware of Enoch, either back when he first started, or more recently if he changed his mind on things.  We don't know if Mac's significance changed as he wrote, like Butters' did.

Personally I think it's feasible that Demonreach is either Dudael itself, or it's Dudael 2.0.  It would play well into the theories that Harry would use the inmates/ley line for a big spell at the end of the series, and Demonreach was the fuel for it, and Dudael is the "Cauldron of God" that the spell would be prepared with.

Of course, all that could be the case and not involve Mac at all.  But it would explain why he was hanging around Chicago, and why he's relevant more than some random other unknown angel.

As for the nephilim being the old gods of pantheons, I think it could be likely, but I don't know that JB would ever limit it to that. It seems more likely that his Dresdenverse versions of gods are manifested Avatars of Creation rather than specifically angel children, because that'd be too much like saying one religion (the Abrahamic three, really) are above others. I don't get the sense that that's his intent.

So Ethniu's comment might be more that they're all Avatars of Creation, by design or otherwise, and are therefore superior to humans. But it could be interpreted either way.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

It seems more likely that his Dresdenverse versions of gods are manifested Avatars of Creation rather than specifically angel children, because that'd be too much like saying one religion (the Abrahamic three, really) are above others. I don't get the sense that that's his intent.

I don't know. So far abrahamic powers (even Fallen ones) seems to trump any others, including Ethniu and her fine armour - and her reaction for both Sword!Angel and Namshiel point out to some common history, and calling Sword (maybe Uriel) a traitor, points to some former common history and camraderie.
And TBH you have to make decisions as a writer - you cannot make all religions equally true, because well overalapping metaphysics is not all that working together. Reality needs to be consistent. Then on the other side - well even abrahamic religions in those books are sort of vanilla Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, than real Abrahamic religions creed, so there's that.

Now of course there are also other things - Odin and Ethniu are called Elemental Forces of Creation so it can points to some lesser angelic spirits (lesser than well Archangels whose duties probably encompass galaxies and probably many universes at once) who were responsible for shaping / maintaining structure of our maybe no Universe at large, but our Earth - so they are powerhouses here, it's sort of their domain so they command much more actual power than extremely restrained angels but in terms of actual level of power so far Angels fallen or not trumps those chthonic powers.

Then we have WOJ about multiverse and how free will split universes - so it's quite possible for "Abrahamic God" here maintaining free will is like maintaining mechanism of keeping multiverse big - this way for each universe devoured by Outside you've got countless more.

PS. And we have WOJ that THE CREATOR sacked all pagan gods from their jobs for being basically awful so you know any believing pagans can be sort of offended from the get go. Maybe except of Asatru.

[Griffyn612]

I don't know. So far abrahamic powers (even Fallen ones) seems to trump any others, including Ethniu and her fine armour - and her reaction for both Sword!Angel and Namshiel point out to some common history, and calling Sword (maybe Uriel) a traitor, points to some former common history and camraderie.
And TBH you have to make decisions as a writer - you cannot make all religions equally true, because well overalapping metaphysics is not all that working together. Reality needs to be consistent. Then on the other side - well even abrahamic religions in those books are sort of vanilla Moralistic Therapeutic Deism, than real Abrahamic religions creed, so there's that.

Now of course there are also other things - Odin and Ethniu are called Elemental Forces of Creation so it can points to some lesser angelic spirits (lesser than well Archangels whose duties probably encompass galaxies and probably many universes at once) who were responsible for shaping / maintaining structure of our maybe no Universe at large, but our Earth - so they are powerhouses here, it's sort of their domain so they command much more actual power than extremely restrained angels but in terms of actual level of power so far Angels fallen or not trumps those chthonic powers.

Then we have WOJ about multiverse and how free will split universes - so it's quite possible for "Abrahamic God" here maintaining free will is like maintaining mechanism of keeping multiverse big - this way for each universe devoured by Outside you've got countless more.

PS. And we have WOJ that THE CREATOR sacked all pagan gods from their jobs for being basically awful so you know any believing pagans can be sort of offended from the get go. Maybe except of Asatru.

Sure, but I think most religions had/have a Creator.

Ymir of the Norse is known more for birthing or supplying the line of beings (gods/giants) that eventually led to Odin and the rest, but he's not credited with actual creation. Atum of the Egyptian pantheon created both gods and the world, so he's more in line with the Creator mythos.

I think JB tends to lean into the elephant parable, so for the Dresdenverse, Atum might be a name for the same Creator as the Abrahamic religions. Ymir *might* be another name for the same, but I think it's more in line with Ymir being a second tier (or lower) being that spawned a pantheon. 

In other words, it's not that the Abrahamic Creator is above other Creators, so much that they're all the same or descendents of one. 

But I also swear that I saw or heard a WoJ (that I have been unable to find, so it's not supported) that Uriel *believes* he was present at the creation of everything, but that doesn't make it *true*. The implication seemed to be that Uriel is shaped, even beyond his own awareness, by what human religion established for him and the other angels. 

I don't know if that was JB hedging to avoid offending those with different beliefs, or if it was an early mental draft to what he was developing for the story, or if that's an accurate description of the Dresdenverse.  And since I can't find that quote, it's hard to support it.  But it's something I keep in mind when thinking about the power structure.

Sure, he now says that the Archangels can obliterate galaxies, but is that because they always could, or because belief gave them that power, and they don't remember anything different because they are what is believed of them?

(For the record, I don't think this is the case. I think in the Dresdenverse, the pantheons are tiers and the Archangels are top tier, and always have been. But it's an interesting idea)

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

I agree.
But also WOJ says that supernatural beings do not change their natures really. We just learn more about them as story progress.
And personally while I support totally supes getting high and mighty on spiritual or psychic power of faith of believers, I'm really tired of trope that gods/titans/faeries are just some manifestations of human belief and do not exist really beyond that.

Of course notion that various creator Gods of various religions are just overall notion of THE CREATOR, is something that was quite commonly accepted among Ancient Church Fathers, like primordial memory from time of original Fall, and then Flood.

[Arjan]

The other thing I read in the series is that the supernatural is retreating, leaving more and more of the action to humans. To keep influence you either have to give up power as Odin did or play it really subtle like Uriel. The widespread disbelief in the supernatural is likely part of that.

The creator god is part of that. He is depicted in as not doing that much anymore.