Author Topic: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol  (Read 19240 times)

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2020, 02:08:31 PM »
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I do not think so. Uriel was far too pleased when she got the southbound train. I do not think only good people have souls because what point would there be in going south?

Corpstaker did not loose who she was. That horrible person was corpstaker.

Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.

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Details. The important part is the belief that the soul exists after the body is gone. There are good reasons to believe that the original jewish belief before christianity did not belief that and believed in the litteral ressurection of the dead to live here on earth.

Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)

But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.

Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.


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It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return.  Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead.  His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it.  It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive.  More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key.  When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that.  Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.

Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.

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Unless Mab had given the body to another shade, do not waste it. She could have asked a good price for it and Bonea could get something out of it as well.

It would not be Harry but his body would be very much alive.

I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul, result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.

Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2020, 03:05:24 PM »
Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.

Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)

But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.
His soul was somewhere else, that was mentioned several times all over the place by reliable sources. Bonea was keeping the body alive, it functioned as her body really.

You can discuss the status of an unborn child but I do not think this is the right forum :-)

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Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.
No reference to that in the books. I am sure that if Corpstaker had taken over Harry's body and Mab and Demonreach had done nothing Harry would have been dead. Butters needed a lot of help to get back to his body even when corpstaker was gone. No handy anchor.
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Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.
Just like Harry she had her soul/spirit combination, her shade. That is what Lea meant. Corpstaker was just the same sort of being as Harry.

She just left her body with her complete non material self and occupied another one. No mystery about that.

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I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul,
A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.

There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.
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result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.
I never said non human. Just a shade. A human shade.

Actually Lea taught Harry (and Molly) more or less how to do it when they both fought the servitors. I think Harry can do what corps taker did he just does not want to. You must be somewhat desperate too leave your own body and occupy another one but old age might drive someone to it.

But Harry is a necromancer too. These tricks are not in fashion anymore because the white council does not like them.

As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.

The next step is not caring too much about whose body it really was. Corps taker routine might not be that well spread it is illustrative about the relation between body and soul in the dresdenverse.
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Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.
Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.

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Offline Dina

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2020, 03:42:00 PM »
It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return.  Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead.  His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it.  It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive.  More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key.  When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that.  Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
I agree with you
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There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2020, 04:07:22 PM »
It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return.  Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead.  His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. 
The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)

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It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive.  More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key.  When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that.  Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.

You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2020, 04:22:58 PM »
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The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)

Mab states that if Dresden soul would not return, she would lost a knight and Demonreach its guardian. So I doubt she would keep Dresden's body alive as handy empty soul for some Corpsetaker 2.0. Especially as her Winter Knight deal was with Dresden as a human being, not just mortal shell.

But she knew his soul is running around in spirit-body.

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Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.

You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.

Seems to be. But I'd assume if body is recoverable - soul should stay around. With Dresden being wizard and necromancer to big, that was bit different, but even then Mab was angry at Uriel for letting Dresden roam around so... it seems it was somehow faciliated by Archangel.

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A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.

There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.

Is there a clear distinction? I mean terms ghost, shade, spirit seems to be used quite wantonly in TDF series, which is tbh expected considering it's one of murkiest elements of reality, even many supernaturals know little about. I'd have to re-read to check if it's used in consistent fashion really.

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Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.

I'm not so sure it's just a body. Body holds tremendous power. Blood matters. Bloodlines matters.
Luccio was forcibly forced to new body and it dimnished her willpower and control over magic despite her immaterial self staying the same.
IIRC Dresden has several flashes from his body during Ghost Story - which means he still is somehow connected to it.
Which can be explained both from spirit and soul sides of shade - I mean ghosts of the dead, soulless memories often dwelled around bodies, around remains - there was real power there-  that's how Dresden fried Bianca after all.

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As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.

Dunno. Definitely he wanted to show soul is way way more important.

Offline Dina

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2020, 04:24:58 PM »
You can have your soul outside your body and that does not mean you are dead. You are only dead when you go to the light or whatever metaphor you want to use.So, it's 2 things. His body was alive and his soul was still around.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2020, 04:30:39 PM »
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You can have your soul outside your body and that does not mean you are dead. You are only dead when you go to the light or whatever metaphor you want to use.So, it's 2 things. His body was alive and his soul was still around.

Well but then Corpsetaker is described as pushed through boundary - (i sort of like idea she was truly dead - not real Corpsetaker and it was just very very powerful ghost just remain of Dresden actions without consideration what killing of such powerful body-hopping wizard can do) but southbound train in the end seems to be proof she was real deal - and yet her soul lingered.

And Uriel claim souls can stay around - but they will with time lost spiritual protection and turn into mad... dunno what really I mean soul cannot be destroyed according to WOJ - it always returns ultimately to its source - but I'm not sure what soul whose ghost body was reduced to nothing can do...

Offline Mira

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2020, 05:05:25 PM »
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Mab states that if Dresden soul would not return, she would lost a knight and Demonreach its guardian. So I doubt she would keep Dresden's body alive as handy empty soul for some Corpsetaker 2.0. Especially as her Winter Knight deal was with Dresden as a human being, not just mortal shell.

But she knew his soul is running around in spirit-body.

Yes, that was the argument she had with Uriel, she could have brought Harry back quite quickly I think, but Uriel insisted that Harry be taught a lesson about the soul.  It was a huge risk.  However it didn't leave Harry's body vulnerable to the Corpstaker, because his body wasn't there when he,Mort, and Molly were fighting her.  Also consider where Harry's body was at and who was looking after it, very doubtful that the Corpstaker would have  been successful.

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Seems to be. But I'd assume if body is recoverable - soul should stay around. With Dresden being wizard and necromancer to big, that was bit different, but even then Mab was angry at Uriel for letting Dresden roam around so... it seems it was somehow faciliated by Archangel.

Yeah, I don't think the comparison with the Beckett girl works.  True, she is in a coma, Harry was in a coma, but there it ends I think.  While she still lives her soul is very much with her, in Harry's case an archangel intervened so his soul would wander, putting it in real danger.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2020, 05:20:10 PM »
Well but then Corpsetaker is described as pushed through boundary - (i sort of like idea she was truly dead - not real Corpsetaker and it was just very very powerful ghost just remain of Dresden actions without
She was described as pushed through the boundary just like Harry
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consideration what killing of such powerful body-hopping wizard can do) but southbound train in the end seems to be proof she was real deal - and yet her soul lingered.

And Uriel claim souls can stay around - but they will with time lost spiritual protection and turn into mad... dunno what really I mean soul cannot be destroyed according to WOJ - it always returns ultimately to its source - but I'm not sure what soul whose ghost body was reduced to nothing can do...
I think you have to choose in some way to stay around. A powerful and well educated necromancier knows about the in and outs so she or he can prepare her return. Corpstaker most probably tried a trick her master already used successfully.

But maybe someone can also stay around to protect their descendants. Ancestor worship must be good for something.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 05:27:11 PM by Arjan »
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2020, 06:39:00 PM »
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She was described as pushed through the boundary just like Harry

Was she? There was no "just like" comparison in quote about her you linked.

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But maybe someone can also stay around to protect their descendants. Ancestor worship must be good for something.

Well yes Sir Stuart seems to be real soul considering Uriel's proposition in finale.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2020, 06:46:45 PM »
Was she? There was no "just like" comparison in quote about her you linked.
Lea Made a direct comparison between corpstaker and Harry and of course Harry did not get it. Or maybe he did but he needed Bob’s explanation to get it.


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Well yes Sir Stuart seems to be real soul considering Uriel's proposition in finale.
That is what I thought. Maybe ancestor worship helps their shades to stay connected in some way.

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When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 06:51:41 PM by Arjan »
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2020, 07:01:04 PM »
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That is what I thought. Maybe ancestor worship helps their shades to stay connected in some way.

I think ancestor worship should work even on pure ghosts as creatures of Nevernever.

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When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”

Ah yes missed that one.
I must say I'm bit disappointed Corpsetaker was truly herself. Dunno why. Somehow her being angry ghost was cooler idea, sure you can kill their enemies, but their memories shall follow you.

Offline Mira

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2020, 08:32:02 PM »
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he body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)

That is why I mentioned his brain, body parts are "kept" alive for transplant, but the original soul they belonged to isn't coming back because the brain is dead.  Dead brain, person all dead.  Harry's brain was very much alive when he  fell into Mab's arms, "Die alone.."  "Hush." He heard and or imagined both, he couldn't do that with a dead brain.  What was done for him on the island kept his body and his brain alive until his soul returned. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 08:34:19 PM by Mira »

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2020, 08:52:10 PM »
There was scenes when he has suddenly getting flashes of cave, or am I misremember it completely?
That would point to my theory he was still anchored in own living body even if spirit body/ghost allowed him to move around independently.

TBH I sort of wish Dresden was able after this to use proper OOBE and just use his shade as a spy in a risky but controled manner.

Offline Dina

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Re: Poor Harry - Jim you cruel man. Lol
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2020, 09:00:21 PM »
Yes, I wanted Harry to leave GS with some cool ghost powers, but not such luck.

And yes, Mira mentioned that too. His soul was connected to his body.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)