I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[Mira]

sounds to me like Justine is not yet infected, but Maeve plans to change that.

The only compromise I can think of is that Justine was infected with a shadow of Beside, similar to the shadow of Lasciel that worked to get Harry to take her in. But like Harry, Justine was resisting.

But if that's the case, I'd still want to know who infected her earlier.

Or it has to be triggered by an event perhaps?  Because if Justine wasn't infected before Cold Days it had to have happened at some point since. 

In Blood Rites it could have happened.  HWWBh emerges from Madge's body.

"I am returned , mortal man,"the demon said through Madge's dead lips." And I remember thee.  Thou and I, we have unfinished business between us."

The thing is, it is something Harry remembers, but he doesn't say anything to HWWBh, nothing happens after that.  Madge's body deflates, and poof, the Outsider is gone?  How odd is that there is no direct interaction between an Outsider and Harry? Not one wise ass remark on Harry's part.  It is also a very weak Justine who directed Harry and company to go and save Thomas.  Was that what she was doing?  Or was her real motive to get Harry killed trying to save Thomas?  Long and the short of it not totally out of the question that she was infected, heck it might be the reason she survived the heavy feeding from the badly injured Thomas. 

[Griffyn612]

Or it has to be triggered by an event perhaps?  Because if Justine wasn't infected before Cold Days it had to have happened at some point since. 

In Blood Rites it could have happened.  HWWBh emerges from Madge's body.

The thing is, it is something Harry remembers, but he doesn't say anything to HWWBh, nothing happens after that.  Madge's body deflates, and poof, the Outsider is gone?  How odd is that there is no direct interaction between an Outsider and Harry? Not one wise ass remark on Harry's part.  It is also a very weak Justine who directed Harry and company to go and save Thomas.  Was that what she was doing?  Or was her real motive to get Harry killed trying to save Thomas?  Long and the short of it not totally out of the question that she was infected, heck it might be the reason she survived the heavy feeding from the badly injured Thomas.

I'd still rather we have an event where she was at least exposed to Beside. 

For now, I'd settle for something like this.
Stages of Beside's Influence

• Contraction - A victim is exposed to Outside power, staining them.
• Impulse - The stain grows, subtly changing their nature without direct involvement from Beside or anyone else.
• Influence - Beside can begin to whisper to them, as a voice inside their head, more directly affecting their decision making.
• Cooperation - The victim becomes aware of Beside's presence, and agrees to work with him for mutual gain.
• Domination - The victim has lost control to Beside, to the point that he can possess them and control their every action.

That would be the natural order of operations for mortals, but an object like the Athame can expedite the infection to the point of near-immediate domination.

And we could see different levels of 'infection' in different victims. (Most of these are hypothetical)

• Sells - Impulse. His nature changed, but Beside never possessed him.
• Denton - Impulse. The belt changed his nature, but Beside never got involved.
• Kravos - Influence. Guy might very well have heard voices that progressed things along.
• Aurora - Influence. Beside whispered to her, influencing her ideas and plans, but without her awareness.
• Book 5? Mavra?
• Book 6? Lord Raith?
• Cowl - Influence. Maybe he's hearing voices, or maybe he's already on to cooperation.
• Lea - Domination. Thanks to the Athame, her progression was swift, but then suppressed by Mab.
• Vitto - Cooperation. He made deals for power to the point he was 'possessed' (most likely hosted) an Outsider. (Per weak WoJ, possibly Before)
• Namshiel's host - Cooperation. Possibly against the will of the Fallen.
• Book 11? Madeline? Skinwalker?
• Arianna - Cooperation? Trying to usurp her father?
• Book 13?
• Maeve - Cooperation. She was never controlled by Beside, but after becoming aware, she became a
• Cat Sith - Domination. Maeve cut corners and quickly advanced things, due to her authority over Sith and his lack of free will.

willing conspirator.[/li]
[li] Book 15?[/li]
[li] Justine - Domination by then, but when did it begin?[/li]
[/list]

Potential sources for Justine's infection.

• Grave Peril - Mavra, Bianca, or the Nightmare infected her after the party. It started slow and ramped up over the years.
• Turn Coat - Skinwalker infected her with his belly swipe attack while attacking Raith manor. By Cold Days she knew she was infected but not cooperating, a la Harry and Lash. Maeve wanted to hurry things along at the end of the book.
• Even Hand - Justine was exposed to something on the mission to the Fomor territory just before the short story events, and Beside was already beginning to control.

[The_Sibelis]

Idk, I think Aurora knew. She said what she was doing was the price set of something to that effect. Always made me think she made a deal with someone, in this case Nemesis.

[Arjan]

Idk, I think Aurora knew. She said what she was doing was the price set of something to that effect. Always made me think she made a deal with someone, in this case Nemesis.

She was confused at the end. She had a destructive idea tailored for her.

I think she was influenced and her mind was changed with something like mind magic but different. She had no idea. She was clueless.

[Mira]

She was confused at the end. She had a destructive idea tailored for her.

I think she was influenced and her mind was changed with something like mind magic but different. She had no idea. She was clueless.

Yes, I think Aurora was a bit of an innocent not unlike Lily.  Oh more intelligent perhaps and she knew her job because her mother was the Summer Queen, but there was a sweetness so yes, she was totally confused by what was happening to her.

[The_Sibelis]

She was confused at the end. She had a destructive idea tailored for her.

I think she was influenced and her mind was changed with something like mind magic but different. She had no idea. She was clueless.

being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.

[Mira]

being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.

Or was that Nemesis talking or doing?  Consider the conversation Harry had with Justine/Nemesis/HWWBs, until Harry figured it out, except for a gut feeling back when he told her about Thomas that something was a bit off, she seemed just like Justine.  It is HWWBs who gloated about setting up her pregnancy, you can say Justine knew, but I doubt she had any control.  I think Aurora knew what was happening, but if she was truly infected, I doubt she had any control.

[Arjan]

being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.

She surely knew how to mess up things but that does not mean she knew she was doing it for Nemesis. Nemesis planted the idea in her head and changed her nature so she would do it but only just enough. She had no idea.

[Griffyn612]

being confused is one thing, talking about it wasn't your price is something else. She knew exactly what she was doing as far as how to screw the fae courts up too.

I think your interpretation of 'price' is too literal.  It's not that it's a price she's paying for some service or something.  It's the price/cost to the world for what she's going to do. She thinks, probably thanks to Beside's influence, that the Courts must fall, and the chaos that will occur will be the price that has to be paid to bring peace. 

But that's just my interpretation.

[Mira]

She surely knew how to mess up things but that does not mean she knew she was doing it for Nemesis. Nemesis planted the idea in her head and changed her nature so she would do it but only just enough. She had no idea.

Agreed, or she was a spectator in her own head and body, she knew what was going on, but all she could do is watch.

[The_Sibelis]

Agreed, or she was a spectator in her own head and body, she knew what was going on, but all she could do is watch.

I never got that feeling. From what we could tell she was emotionally disturbed but her mental faculty was not compromised.

I think your interpretation of 'price' is too literal.  It's not that it's a price she's paying for some service or something.

idk, most of the major fae players seem to have made a bargain that had Nemesis attached.(Sith gets left out as a non standard example, we don't know what they did to him to coerce him into being a puppet) Lea accepted the knife, Maeve straight up accepted Nemesis for the fringe benefits. Me thinks part of the fae having some dissolution of soul/real world existence gives them the basic choice to resist Nemesis, so they have to on some level accept it.
More to the point though, she says specifically not MY price, meaning someone else set the price. It's wasn't just THE price.
(Used to have a theory Nemesis was analogous to Ursula from The Little Mermaid lol. Making deals for souls and then trading them to others who shouldnt have them. With the advent of Ethniu Im not sure I was entirely wrong so much as incomplete in that thinking, after all, Ethniu also matched exactly how I thought Nemesis felt about humans and why.)

[Arjan]

I never got that feeling. From what we could tell she was emotionally disturbed but her mental faculty was not compromised. idk, most of the major fae players seem to have made a bargain that had Nemesis attached.(Sith gets left out as a non standard example, we don't know what they did to him to coerce him into being a puppet) Lea accepted the knife, Maeve straight up accepted Nemesis for the fringe benefits. Me thinks part of the fae having some dissolution of soul/real world existence gives them the basic choice to resist Nemesis, so they have to on some level accept it.
More to the point though, she says specifically not MY price, meaning someone else set the price. It's wasn't just THE price.
(Used to have a theory Nemesis was analogous to Ursula from The Little Mermaid lol. Making deals for souls and then trading them to others who shouldnt have them. With the advent of Ethniu Im not sure I was entirely wrong so much as incomplete in that thinking, after all, Ethniu also matched exactly how I thought Nemesis felt about humans and why.)

We only have a few examples so I don't think we can exclude Cat Sith as atypical that easily.

Harry just assumed the walker jumped him and forced the infection and I see no reason to doubt him. I think an infection can be forced or tricked but resistance is only possible if the host is made aware of it.

Cat sith was made aware of it by Harry and tried to resist and failed. He was simply not strong enough but forced Nemesis to take direct control. But Nemesis made quite clear that it Maeve did  notpreferred unaware hidden assets. A possessed asset is far easier to discover.

Lea became aware and resisted successfully with Mab's help. Maeve did not tried to resist but most strong characters would try to resist if made aware. Aurora never knew, that is how Nemesis prefers to operate.

It gives the maximum effect with the minimum effort.

[Mira]

I think it takes advantage of traits that the victim already has.  Just like some people are more suseptable to some diseases, so victims are to Nemesis.  Maeve is the prime example of that, she had a whole list of dissatisfactions with her lot in life, once in contact with the Knife, she was an easy target.  Lea also to a lessor degree, if one reads carefully her actions and what she says before Grave Peril, there is a definite desire for power, which also made her an easy target.

[Bad Alias]

Potential sources for Justine's infection.

It could have been at some point shortly before or during WN from Vittorio Malvora.

Consider the conversation Harry had with Justine/Nemesis/HWWBs, until Harry figured it out, except for a gut feeling back when he told her about Thomas that something was a bit off, she seemed just like Justine.

That could be because Harry has spent most of his time with Justine after she became infected. It might be hard for him to spot her acting out of character.

[Mira]

That could be because Harry has spent most of his time with Justine after she became infected. It might be hard for him to spot her acting out of character.

He did find something maybe not out of character for her but what he felt "off" when he told her the news about Thomas.  However with everything else going at a rapid pace at that point he couldn't connect the dots.