I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[Megan Marie]

If there's a law of magic for it, there's probably going to be a book where harry breaks it (or bends it into unrecognizable).
There's a WOJ out there somewhere that says something along the lines that Harry's going to break them all eventually.  Sue was my favorite crime so far!

[Telynn]

If there's a law of magic for it, there's probably going to be a book where harry breaks it (or bends it into unrecognizable).
There's a WOJ out there somewhere that says something along the lines that Harry's going to break them all eventually.  Sue was my favorite crime so far!

I remember hearing that too, that before the end Harry will have broken every law of magic.  Which means at some point he will time travel.

[Arjan]

I remember hearing that too, that before the end Harry will have broken every law of magic.  Which means at some point he will time travel.

But I do not know if it was serious or a joke. Sue was not breaking the laws. We know because he survived it and even became a warden.

[Mira]

But I do not know if it was serious or a joke. Sue was not breaking the laws. We know because he survived it and even became a warden.

Wasn't he a Warden when he did it?  I cannot remember the exact timing.

[Arjan]

Wasn't he a Warden when he did it?  I cannot remember the exact timing.

He got the cloak in the same book just before the final fight.

[Telynn]

But I do not know if it was serious or a joke. Sue was not breaking the laws. We know because he survived it and even became a warden.

They implied that it was borderline.  I think they chose to look the other way.  Off on a technicality sort of.  If they had wanted to they could have gone after him for it.  Like they did at the end of BG with the formors. 

I never heard exactly what Jim said about the Harry breaking the laws, so yeah, could have been a joke.  But if the wasn't, I would think Sue would count in his book because it was borderline. 

[Dina]

I agree with you Telynn.

[Bad Alias]

Jim's said it several times. I don't know how literal he's being. I'm not sure if the book is supposed to be about Harry breaking the law or just approaching it. I also think he had said Dead Beat was the necromancy book, but, as discussed above, Harry didn't violate that law.

[The_Sibelis]

I really feel like him 'breaking' the laws is him doing what others have done and finding the grey areas. His mother, Mab in her human past? Sue was a grey area, Morgan agreed it was necessary that night, but if Harry had become a full time animal necromancer I don't think it would have sat well with the council.. the grey areas imo are things that don't truly violate free will. Sue didn't have free will. When the fae(or later the rag lady) make people see things they still choose how they react. A choice is still made, even if it's a very matrixy subliminal choice. I could probably find ways to violate all the laws that way. The self defense claus on not killing for instance, they chose to attack you. Time travel Bob directly explained, you can't effect choice, but you can change circumstances to effect what choices are available. The only off one is seeking knowledge beyond the outer gates, but I blame lack of exact knowledge on details. We don't know enough to say. Though in guessing MM actually deals with this one. Other realities should qualify..

[Dimitri]

My personal guess is that she was exposed to infection on that Fomor raid we heard about in Even Hand.  Maybe it was before that, but the text in Cold Days suggests otherwise, at least to me.

My guess is someone used something on her, like the Athame or hex belt, which (like a usb connected directly to a machine) installed Beside's protocols directly, without consent.

This is dragging up an older topic but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I suspect Justine was infected around the time of White Night (likely after but possibly before). It was right around the time she was clearly becoming useful to Lara and Nemesis could have learned of her through Vittorio either during or before the Deeps. The Justine we saw there was much more functional than the one we'd seen before (though meds were her given reason) but the Justine we saw from every other interaction was much more functional than that. Its likely she accepted Nemisis willingly (without it revealing what it really was) under the promise that it could reunite her with Thomas. (Which it did...) After that she was likely manipulating things from the background. Like pitting Marcone vs Formor in Even Hand.

[Griffyn612]

This is dragging up an older topic but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I suspect Justine was infected around the time of White Night (likely after but possibly before). It was right around the time she was clearly becoming useful to Lara and Nemesis could have learned of her through Vittorio either during or before the Deeps. The Justine we saw there was much more functional than the one we'd seen before (though meds were her given reason) but the Justine we saw from every other interaction was much more functional than that. Its likely she accepted Nemisis willingly (without it revealing what it really was) under the promise that it could reunite her with Thomas. (Which it did...) After that she was likely manipulating things from the background. Like pitting Marcone vs Formor in Even Hand.

I think it depends on the nature of possession by Beside, which we don't know for sure. I could see it being a quick forced possession in the Even Hand adventure, or I could see it being a slow seduction possession starting around White Night.

But the comment by Maeve in Cold Days just seems damning to the latter. If Justine was already possessed and in Beside's control, there'd be no need for Maeve to call out that Justine was of interest to her, being so close to Lara. 

Even if Justine was being slowly corrupted at that point, it seems unlikely that Maeve would spell out the reason that she was already being corrupted.  It seems much more likely to me that Maeve and Beside had genuine interest in getting to Justine, and that slipped out when Maeve thought her win was assured.

[Mira]

This is dragging up an older topic but I wanted to share my thoughts.
I suspect Justine was infected around the time of White Night (likely after but possibly before). It was right around the time she was clearly becoming useful to Lara and Nemesis could have learned of her through Vittorio either during or before the Deeps. The Justine we saw there was much more functional than the one we'd seen before (though meds were her given reason) but the Justine we saw from every other interaction was much more functional than that. Its likely she accepted Nemisis willingly (without it revealing what it really was) under the promise that it could reunite her with Thomas. (Which it did...) After that she was likely manipulating things from the background. Like pitting Marcone vs Formor in Even Hand.

My theory is she became infected as far back as Blood Rites.

[Bad Alias]

I really feel like him 'breaking' the laws is him doing what others have done and finding the grey areas.

That's kind of where I'm at. It might also just be a book centered around someone else violating the law. I wonder what the "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others" book will look like.

My theory is she became infected as far back as Blood Rites.

Yeah. I don't think it could have been any further back than that unless Behind was lying. For theorizing, I assume what we see on page is true unless we have good reason to think otherwise.

[Mira]

Yeah. I don't think it could have been any further back than that unless Behind was lying. For theorizing, I assume what we see on page is true unless we have good reason to think otherwise.

It was from Blood Rites on that Justine's relationship with the Raiths in general began to change, she began to work closer and closer to Lara.  Justine also went through a bit of a transformation also that was mainly attributed to her near death from feeding by the injured Thomas.  But what if it wasn't from the feeding?

[Griffyn612]

My theory is she became infected as far back as Blood Rites.

What do you think Maeve meant when she said this in Cold Days?

Justine made a quiet sound and went to Mac’s side.
Maeve’s eyes fastened on her. “And the vampire’s crumpet. Luscious little thing, aren’t you? And so close to Lady Raith. You and I are going to have a long talk after this, darling. I just know you’re going to start to see things my way.”

It sounds to me like Justine is not yet infected, but Maeve plans to change that.

The only compromise I can think of is that Justine was infected with a shadow of Beside, similar to the shadow of Lasciel that worked to get Harry to take her in. But like Harry, Justine was resisting. 

But if that's the case, I'd still want to know who infected her earlier.