I'm A Bit Confused... Nemesis or Outsider or Both???

[Mira]

I might be missing something in your analogy, but my point is that Harry was corrupted by his use of black magic. If black magic corruption is Outsider corruption, and Harry is immune from black magic corruption, then Harry can't be corrupted by his use of black magic, except in the mundane real world sense that bad acts corrupt a person.

Not quite, Harry has been tainted by it according to the Ulsharavas back in Death Mask.  It felt it on Harry, who admitted to a bad call or two, but said most of it wasn't of his doing.  So no, Harry isn't immune to black magic corruption, but one can move beyond it.  Charity must have done some black magic, though perhaps innocently, but she was on her way to becoming a warlock before that dragon got her, Michael saved her, and she swore off magic all together.

[Dina]

manipulation sure, but I'd argue most of those were still him making the choices on some level. The WK mantle makes his inner voices louder, Lash had subliminal discussions with his ID, he ate the nightmares chi, Evil Bob mesmerized him, but in the end had to try old fashioned recruitment too, ect. Though of course he's not immune to manipulation, no. Like the WCV's power. Or what evil Bob did. But most of these seem to work on other levels than purely psychic, which seems to be the ultimate display of power, Willpower.  I think that's where he's got the edge. Even his display against MW was the will of one tiny mortal against a cosmic level being. Course... She might be kinda outsiderish too...

I think the mantle is doing more than making his inner voice louder.

[The_Sibelis]

I think the mantle is doing more than making his inner voice louder.

that's the way it was explained to us though. It hasn't made him do anything completely abnormal for him imo. He's always been a bit of a repressed hound dog, he's always had tendency towards anger, and everyone has a primal side to tap for the basic stuff like territory and what not  Now, if he started eating people or something like some of the previous famous winter knights then definitely more than that. They were screwy from the beginning I think though. Their inner voices had bad juju to them...

[Griffyn612]

manipulation sure, but I'd argue most of those were still him making the choices on some level. The WK mantle makes his inner voices louder, Lash had subliminal discussions with his ID, he ate the nightmares chi, Evil Bob mesmerized him, but in the end had to try old fashioned recruitment too, ect. Though of course he's not immune to manipulation, no. Like the WCV's power. Or what evil Bob did. But most of these seem to work on other levels than purely psychic, which seems to be the ultimate display of power, Willpower.  I think that's where he's got the edge. Even his display against MW was the will of one tiny mortal against a cosmic level being. Course... She might be kinda outsiderish too...

It's a slope, and what we've seen is him at the very top, putting one foot out. It starts with very subtle shifts in personality or behavior that he doesn't notice. Then it gets worse, and worse, until he's acting out of character for what he originally was.

Until...

I think the mantle is doing more than making his inner voice louder.

Exactly thia. He spent basically no time fighting the mantle in Battle Ground. He leaned into it a few times. He recognized it influencing him in the final battle with Ethniu, and recognizing her vulnerability, and it didn't caution him.  He felt it leading his bannermen, and it didn't phase him. He embraced it on the march though the city.

He's fully capable of going dark side. He's just immune to the specific threats of the Outsiders.

[Bad Alias]

He might be immune to the corruption caused by black magic.

I'm pretty sure he's not.

My specific question to Griff is whether or not black magic corruption is Outsider corruption. I ask this because I believe Harry was corrupted by black magic. If a starborn is immune to Outsider corruption, then Harry would be immune from black magic corruption if it was Outsider corruption.

Harry isn't immune from black magic corruption, therefore black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption. (At least that's my thinking assuming starborn are immune to Outsider corruption).

Now it could be that starborn have really strong resistance, not immunity, to Outsider corruption. This would explain why Harry didn't go full warlock from his corruption and why borderline 1st Law violations don't seem to have any affect on him. Killing the Turtlenecks with magic might make a regular wizard go full on cackling evil. But for Harry, it's no big deal. (Or they're not 1st Law violations at all). I'd have to carefully parse what Eb said in PT about it.

[Mira]

Now it could be that starborn have really strong resistance, not immunity, to Outsider corruption. This would explain why Harry didn't go full warlock from his corruption and why borderline 1st Law violations don't seem to have any affect on him. Killing the Turtlenecks with magic might make a regular wizard go full on cackling evil. But for Harry, it's no big deal. (Or they're not 1st Law violations at all). I'd have to carefully parse what Eb said in PT about it.

Part of that is, can the Turtlenecks be considered human?  They may have been when kidnapped, but they have been genetically altered, they have gills they can live underwater, so would killing them really be breaking the First Law?  When does ordinary magic become Black? Just because someone dies, does that make it Black?  Or is it just breaking the First Law?

[Arjan]

Part of that is, can the Turtlenecks be considered human?  They may have been when kidnapped, but they have been genetically altered, they have gills they can live underwater, so would killing them really be breaking the First Law?  When does ordinary magic become Black? Just because someone dies, does that make it Black?  Or is it just breaking the First Law?

The outward signs are not the most important, it is about how the non material part is changed. And there is no hard border, being human has a grey area.

And with these cases it is only braking the law if the council says so. 

[Griffyn612]

My specific question to Griff is whether or not black magic corruption is Outsider corruption. I ask this because I believe Harry was corrupted by black magic. If a starborn is immune to Outsider corruption, then Harry would be immune from black magic corruption if it was Outsider corruption.

Harry isn't immune from black magic corruption, therefore black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption. (At least that's my thinking assuming starborn are immune to Outsider corruption).

Now it could be that starborn have really strong resistance, not immunity, to Outsider corruption. This would explain why Harry didn't go full warlock from his corruption and why borderline 1st Law violations don't seem to have any affect on him. Killing the Turtlenecks with magic might make a regular wizard go full on cackling evil. But for Harry, it's no big deal. (Or they're not 1st Law violations at all). I'd have to carefully parse what Eb said in PT about it.

I think magic a spectrum of energy, with different types of magic working at different frequencies. 

I think Outsider magic (spells, incantations) is on a specific frequency that goes Outside.  I think the Outsider frequency is in the dark end of the spectrum, so it's dark magic, but not the same as other dark magics.  Hellfire is a dark magic, but it's a different frequency. 

Likewise, faith magic, soulfire, and other examples that we don't see much of are light magic.

I think mortal magic is unique because it's basically neutral, but the intent and the result can both change the frequency.  If Harry casts fire to light a candle, it's not dark.  If he does it to kill someone, or he inadvertently kills someone with it, then a spiritual backlash occurs that taints it as dark.  That pain and suffering that his magic causes splashes back on his magic/aura/spirit/soul, and it stains it.

It's easier to picture it as paint.  If every mortal starts off with a gray base paint, then how they use their magic will affect the color.  Do something dark, like killing someone, and you're going to get a splash of black in that gray.  Use your power for good, like making a baby laugh, and you're going to get a splash of white.  And since every type of black magic is its own color/frequency, it can be distinguished from others.

Likewise, if you come into contact with magic that's dark enough, and it comes into contact with your spirit/paintcan, then stains can be left even without your involvement.

[The_Sibelis]

I'm pretty sure he's not.

My specific question to Griff is whether or not black magic corruption is Outsider corruption. I ask this because I believe Harry was corrupted by black magic. If a starborn is immune to Outsider corruption, then Harry would be immune from black magic corruption if it was Outsider corruption.

Harry isn't immune from black magic corruption, therefore black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption.

I don't think personally it's the same, but interrelated. My theory involves magic being an unbalanced force in creation and all that, but I simpler way to explain it, I have.(totally didn't mean to talk like Yoda, but there it is lol)  black magic is the vector by which it travels as in

, a disease vector is any agent which carries and transmits an infectious pathogen into another living organism

we know Morgana's Atheme was a vector for Nemesis but have we considered WHY? Morgana was probably a black magic user, she used her Atheme for black magic and tainted it. Leah using something tainted with black magic is what then gave Nemesis the way in. So it's not necessarily the same to be relative to it. It's simply something that acts as the conduction agent.
*If copper were black magic, lightning would be Nemesis, and Harry would be made of rubber.

[Mira]

The outward signs are not the most important, it is about how the non material part is changed. And there is no hard border, being human has a grey area.

And with these cases it is only braking the law if the council says so.

Which is a set up, or what the judge said about whether something was pornography or not, "I know it when I see it."  What sucks is likely every Senior Wizard that was at the battle along with Carlos, probably made the same kills as Harry.

[Bad Alias]

Part of that is, can the Turtlenecks be considered human?  They may have been when kidnapped, but they have been genetically altered, they have gills they can live underwater, so would killing them really be breaking the First Law?  When does ordinary magic become Black? Just because someone dies, does that make it Black?  Or is it just breaking the First Law?

I don't know whether the Turtlenecks, or any of the other borderline cases we've seen, count as mortals for the 1st Law. That's why I threw that parenthetical out there.

When magic causes the death of a mortal, it's black magic. Jim's made that very clear. He has not made causes and mortal very clear though. Also he hasn't made it clear whether or not any exceptions to the general rule apply.

And with these cases it is only braking the law if the council says so. 

The way I see it is that there is Law. It exists independent of the Council as a part of the fundamental nature of the universe. A rule of cause and effect. Do X and Y happens. Then there is the Council's rule that you can't do X. If you do X, we kill you. X being a "violation" of the natural law. What matters for the Council's enforcement of the natural law is their interpretation of it. Their interpretation of the law and what the law is aren't one to one.

What I'm getting from Griff and Sibelis is that black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption, but is the fertile ground suited for the growth of Outsider corruption.

[Arjan]

I don't know whether the Turtlenecks, or any of the other borderline cases we've seen, count as mortals for the 1st Law. That's why I threw that parenthetical out there.

When magic causes the death of a mortal, it's black magic. Jim's made that very clear. He has not made causes and mortal very clear though. Also he hasn't made it clear whether or not any exceptions to the general rule apply.
The way I see it is that there is Law. It exists independent of the Council as a part of the fundamental nature of the universe. A rule of cause and effect. Do X and Y happens. Then there is the Council's rule that you can't do X. If you do X, we kill you. X being a "violation" of the natural law. What matters for the Council's enforcement of the natural law is their interpretation of it. Their interpretation of the law and what the law is aren't one to one.

What I'm getting from Griff and Sibelis is that black magic corruption isn't Outsider corruption, but is the fertile ground suited for the growth of Outsider corruption.

The councils laws are a human construct and while breaking them usually leads to black magic corruption I see them as separate things.

How you choose to use your magic is a very important choice that shapes you. In that sense every bad choice taints you and some of those taints are so black that it shows as black magic corruption. Others might be a few grey patches.

Outsiders are something different entirely.

[Bad Alias]

The councils laws are a human construct.

...

How you choose to use your magic is a very important choice that shapes you.

...

Outsiders are something different entirely.

I think the laws are an interpretation of the fundamental laws of the universe. They're a mostly, but not entirely, correct one. Like Newtonian Physics.

Black magic isn't necessarily an act of will. One can choose a magical act that isn't violent that results in death. That results in black magic taint according to JB. This isn't how I'd set up a magical system, but I'm not JB. It's more of a cause and effect thing.

I'm not sure Outsiders and black magic are entirely separate. Some black magic is very different than other black magic. Early in the books, black magic is just a perversion of the forces of creation. As we advance, Harry comes to the conclusion that there is another energy source in BR when he's dealing with the entropy curse fueled by HWWBehind.

[Arjan]

Explaining Black magic is not even the purpose of these laws. It is all about preventing the worst excesses of the use of magic by mortals. There are probably plenty ways to darken your spirit without breaking the laws.

And there is magic that in itself is dark. You can use it without breaking the councils laws but it will still taint you.

[Mira]

Explaining Black magic is not even the purpose of these laws. It is all about preventing the worst excesses of the use of magic by mortals. There are probably plenty ways to darken your spirit without breaking the laws.

And there is magic that in itself is dark. You can use it without breaking the councils laws but it will still taint you.

I think of Black Magic is more of a drug addiction.  It isn't always the easiest way to a goal, but it often is, so one is tempted to use it again.  It effects the perception of the one who practices it, the adept who uses it begins to see himself or herself differently,  power and superiority over others.. Until one ends up like the Koren Kid or worse, Kemmler.