Mab and Lara

[Ed0517]

Was the Red King the first or the oldest? They were all in his bloodline. If the LotON were siblings, the curse would have still worked. Another possibility is that the Red King was the patriarch of a faction of ramps that found the Maya gods, got supercharged, and then killed all the other factions.

Papa Raith had a brother that he threw out of a plane. This leads me to believe that he wasn't the first. How would his brother have become a wamp if Papa was the first?

I don't think the Red King was either the oldest or the first - weren't the Eebs  from a previous dynasty, allowed to live because they did not make any trouble? The Red King may have had a coup and eliminated any threats beneath him before he generated his own progeny

[Arjan]

I don't think the Red King was either the oldest or the first - weren't the Eebs  from a previous dynasty, allowed to live because they did not make any trouble? The Red King may have had a coup and eliminated any threats beneath him before he generated his own progeny

The eebs were new. Not from the first maya. Somewhere after the Spanish conquest.

[Ed0517]

Uriel can not slap anyone down because it is not allowed. Vadderung sacrificed pure power for more freedom to act and more ability to influence things.

In the dresdenverse the more power you have, above a certain level, the less you can do.

No, Uriel WON'T (otherwise BG is a paragraph), but he has the POWER.  That is why Mab doesn't even speak his name. He's orders of magnitude above her in power. The freewilled below him had the power to stop Ethnieu is they made the choices and paid the price (Murphy, Hendricks, etc).   The fact she was jailed by a limited earth-based entity in Alfred, less than a planet level, as compared to someone who said he could unmake galaxies...   

[Ed0517]

The eebs were new. Not from the first maya. Somewhere after the Spanish conquest.

Does the first Maya refer to the Mayan people... or the Red King himself, though... I was thinking the Red King is the First Maya, first among the Court, and they are not of his line, but another one. Jim, in Cinder Spires, refers to the Spirearch (basically the king, though not an absolute ruler) as First Citizen of Albion as part of his title. 

[Arjan]

Does the first Maya refer to the Mayan people... or the Red King himself, though... I was thinking the Red King is the First Maya, first among the Court, and they are not of his line, but another one. Jim, in Cinder Spires, refers to the Spirearch (basically the king, though not an absolute ruler) as First Citizen of Albion as part of his title.

They have Spanish names and everything screams Spanish about them so they can not be that old and the whole culture of the red court screams pre Columbian so.

[Arjan]

No, Uriel WON'T (otherwise BG is a paragraph), but he has the POWER.  That is why Mab doesn't even speak his name. He's orders of magnitude above her in power. The freewilled below him had the power to stop Ethnieu is they made the choices and paid the price (Murphy, Hendricks, etc).   The fact she was jailed by a limited earth-based entity in Alfred, less than a planet level, as compared to someone who said he could unmake galaxies...

He is severely restricted in what he can do and that is because he does not have the free will and even if he can he will fall. Power has its price.

A lot of what Uriel theoretically can do is practically meaningless. He is quite good at working around his limitations but most of the power he has is never used.

Maybe it is different if someone directly attacks him but most of the time it is quite safe to ignore him. Power is not the same as influence in the dresdenverse and a lot of influence Uriel has is because he is smart and has a lot of insight. Not exactly because he has a lot of power.

[Bad Alias]

I don't think the Red King was either the oldest.

He was the oldest extant ramp as all ramps were his progeny.

[Dina]

Back on topic about Mab and Lara, I was rereading the BG chapter in the castle, before Harry decides to go rescue people, and Eb tells him that Mab was planning something to have him in a stronger leash than before. More bound to her. Now we know about the wedding. So, how exactly is marrying Lara more dependent of Winter? And...will it work?

[Arjan]

Back on topic about Mab and Lara, I was rereading the BG chapter in the castle, before Harry decides to go rescue people, and Eb tells him that Mab was planning something to have him in a stronger leash than before. More bound to her. Now we know about the wedding. So, how exactly is marrying Lara more dependent of Winter? And...will it work?

Mab is just being Mab, she does what she thinks is best. Eb is just Eb, He knows how monsters behave so he tells Harry.

This marriage will work the same as any command he does not like. 

[KurtinStGeorge]

Mab believes that White Court Vampires are "mortal enough" to be vessels for the Fae mantels.  She told Harry that Thomas would be his replacement if Harry didn't play ball.

She believed Thomas was mortal enough because he is in love. Lara is definitely not mortal enough.

There's a misunderstanding here of what Mab actually said.  Mab said Thomas was mortal enough to be the Winter Knight, and the Winter Knight is the mortal champion of Winter.  The Winter Lady is an immortal.  So I'm not seeing a problem with a White Court vampire becoming the Winter Lady, beyond the obvious lack of the ability to feed.  There's nothing in the text that I can see that makes this impossible.     

[Mira]

There's a misunderstanding here of what Mab actually said.  Mab said Thomas was mortal enough to be the Winter Knight, and the Winter Knight is the mortal champion of Winter.  The Winter Lady is an immortal.  So I'm not seeing a problem with a White Court vampire becoming the Winter Lady, beyond the obvious lack of the ability to feed.  There's nothing in the text that I can see that makes this impossible.     

Not clear is the virginity requirement that was poor Carlos's undoing with Molly.  Lara is no virgin, and I cannot see her forgoing her pleasures even if she cannot feed anymore.  Unless Mab wants her as her own replacement, as Queen of Winter.   

[Regenbogen]

Not clear is the virginity requirement that was poor Carlos's undoing with Molly.  Lara is no virgin, and I cannot see her forgoing her pleasures even if she cannot feed anymore.  Unless Mab wants her as her own replacement, as Queen of Winter.

I too was thinking of Lara more as a replacement for Mab. IMO this role would be more fitting for her. And therefore Molly staying the Lady. It would make sense keeping Lara close. Maybe one of the reasons for the marriage. So that she is already there as a new vessel, when the mantle of Winter Queen is set free.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Not clear is the virginity requirement that was poor Carlos's undoing with Molly.  Lara is no virgin, and I cannot see her forgoing her pleasures even if she cannot feed anymore.  Unless Mab wants her as her own replacement, as Queen of Winter.

Molly didn't get a choice in the matter.  What makes you think Mab would give Lara a choice?  Lately, Lara has been in Mab's presence for a fair amount of time.  If that continues she might not understand that she is being prepared as a vessel for a mantel any more than Molly did.

Yes, Mab might want Lara as her replacement, but that doesn't mean Lara can't start out as the Winter Lady, even if only for a few hours.  I could see that happening within the story of a single novel.  Mab dies, Molly becomes the Queen, Lara gets hit by the Lady's mantel, Halloween night will end in a few hours and Harry has to find a way to get himself and Molly free from Winter and keep Lara from starving as the Winter Lady.

[Mira]

Molly didn't get a choice in the matter.  What makes you think Mab would give Lara a choice?  Lately, Lara has been in Mab's presence for a fair amount of time.  If that continues she might not understand that she is being prepared as a vessel for a mantel any more than Molly did.

How about as Winter Knight?  Mab knows that Lara would have no problem with being ruthless and murdering someone if it is required, where as Harry might.  So if Harry is able to or for some reason has to vacate the Winter Knight's mantle, Lara could take it.

[Dina]

Molly didn't get a choice in the matter.  What makes you think Mab would give Lara a choice?  Lately, Lara has been in Mab's presence for a fair amount of time.  If that continues she might not understand that she is being prepared as a vessel for a mantel any more than Molly did.

Yes, Mab might want Lara as her replacement, but that doesn't mean Lara can't start out as the Winter Lady, even if only for a few hours.  I could see that happening within the story of a single novel.  Mab dies, Molly becomes the Queen, Lara gets hit by the Lady's mantel, Halloween night will end in a few hours and Harry has to find a way to get himself and Molly free from Winter and keep Lara from starving as the Winter Lady.

About your first paragraph: I think that is why Mab wants Lara around Harry (at events and such). The mantle influence may affect her the way Lea affected Molly.

About the second: Lara become the WL freeing Molly in the process (don't know details). They rescue Justine, that keeps being her secretary and spends time with her because of the baby. Then, in the BAT Mab dies, Lara become Mab, Justine become the WL and Thomas, to stay with her, became the WK (thus releasing Harry of his obligations). All planned by Mab, of course.