Mab and Lara

[Ed0517]

she's been Mab for a thousand years, and the only Winter Ladies we know of are Maeve and Molly...there obviously were Winter Ladies before Maeve, so the question is whether they were actual daughters of Mab, and more importantly, were they discarded because they showed the same lack of restraint as Maeve? 

hmmm...daughters.... or people with Fae links like Lily.... could Molly be a descendant of Mab? They refer to Mab as in the time of Hastings... Britain.... we know Charity's parents were wealthy, and that could be a Puritan sounding name... maybe Charity descended from a Mayflower family, old money.... maybe Boston Brahmin... so proper... with a magic strain running thru the blood lines that One Does Not Talk About.... Charity ran away from tat life, but not her blood...     

[Ed0517]

This is an interesting thought.

Mab believes that White Court Vampires are "mortal enough" to be vessels for the Fae mantels.  She told Harry that Thomas would be his replacement if Harry didn't play ball.

Also consider that the Winter Mother was able to construct an enchantment that COULD have taken the thirst away from Susan.  Leansidhe was able to quiet the thirst for both Susan and Martin.  Harry immediately realized the implication -- if she could do that, then with some study, the thirst could be eliminated. 

The White Court is every bit as human as the half-turned reds like Susan and Martin. I don't think Lara's hunger would be any obstacle to the Winter Mother, or Mab or even Leansidhe.   

Lara would make a pretty good Winter Queen.  Much better at it than Molly.

I think Mother Summer and Mother Winter are likely tied as the second most powerful beings we have seen - either of them with their reality warping would have kicked Ethnieu right back into the water without a sweat. And since neither Ferrovax nor Vadderrung stepped up to slap the Titan down, she must be above them on the scale as well. The only one that probably can slap THEM down is Uriel. Though none of them can stop that Angel of Death if she is doing her mission. But her purview is limited.   

[Mira]

I think Mother Summer and Mother Winter are likely tied as the second most powerful beings we have seen - either of them with their reality warping would have kicked Ethnieu right back into the water without a sweat. And since neither Ferrovax nor Vadderrung stepped up to slap the Titan down, she must be above them on the scale as well. The only one that probably can slap THEM down is Uriel. Though none of them can stop that Angel of Death if she is doing her mission. But her purview is limited.   

But Vadderrung/Odin did, one has to wonder if he was playing possum when supposedly Ethnieu slapped him down and stole Swayer.  He had her and the weapon right where he wanted them, he said the word and Swayer turned on her going for the Eye.  Do you think it just luck that Lara and company just happened to appear in that moment and kick the Eye out of her head?  Thus making her vulnerable,  it was a set up.  As Harry said, in the end he was merely batting clean up.

[StrayDog]

Ok, here is a WAG: Harry is destined to eliminate all vampires. He already did it with the red ones and he will do it with the Black when  he kills Drakul and everyone discovers that the old trope of "killing the vampire boss kills every one under them" is true. Then come the whites. Harry will probably discover a way to do kill the hunger, which will be great for Thomas and his baby but not so much for elder vampires, who will die without the hunger. Well, that is why becoming  Lady will be so important for her. It will provide an escape for Molly that did not complicate things for the universe.

This is very interesting, please continue with your WAG. What could happen next? My own WAG is that Lara tried to finish Papa off but discovered that he was attached to an Outsider, hence the need for Harry. She knows Harry can take on Outsiders, she was there in the Deeps. Mab of course is always looking to improve so will take advantage any place she can work it.

[ElJefe81]

hmmm...daughters.... or people with Fae links like Lily.... could Molly be a descendant of Mab? They refer to Mab as in the time of Hastings... Britain.... we know Charity's parents were wealthy, and that could be a Puritan sounding name... maybe Charity descended from a Mayflower family, old money.... maybe Boston Brahmin... so proper... with a magic strain running thru the blood lines that One Does Not Talk About.... Charity ran away from tat life, but not her blood...   

We also know Michael's line goes back to royalty, so it's possible that Mab "meddled" on her father's side as well

[Arjan]

I think Mother Summer and Mother Winter are likely tied as the second most powerful beings we have seen - either of them with their reality warping would have kicked Ethnieu right back into the water without a sweat. And since neither Ferrovax nor Vadderrung stepped up to slap the Titan down, she must be above them on the scale as well. The only one that probably can slap THEM down is Uriel. Though none of them can stop that Angel of Death if she is doing her mission. But her purview is limited.

Uriel can not slap anyone down because it is not allowed. Vadderung sacrificed pure power for more freedom to act and more ability to influence things.

In the dresdenverse the more power you have, above a certain level, the less you can do.

[Dina]

But Vadderrung/Odin did, one has to wonder if he was playing possum when supposedly Ethnieu slapped him down and stole Swayer.  He had her and the weapon right where he wanted them, he said the word and Swayer turned on her going for the Eye.  Do you think it just luck that Lara and company just happened to appear in that moment and kick the Eye out of her head?  Thus making her vulnerable,  it was a set up.  As Harry said, in the end he was merely batting clean up.

I agree

This is very interesting, please continue with your WAG. What could happen next? My own WAG is that Lara tried to finish Papa off but discovered that he was attached to an Outsider, hence the need for Harry. She knows Harry can take on Outsiders, she was there in the Deeps. Mab of course is always looking to improve so will take advantage any place she can work it.

My current theory about Papa Raith is that he will be feed to Thomas but I like your idea. And about my WAG, well, I had not thought when all that would happen. The Drakul part probably won't happen until the BAT but the white ones can happen before. We know it's easier to change mantles in Halloween, so the Lara thing will happen in a Halloween, probably the Halloween before the BAT.
 I had not thought much more except that before all that, when the white court is still operating, they need to solve the Thomas situation, not only the physical one but his political status. If Papa Raith really dies, the heir apparent would be Thomas, which would probably be used in his favor. If he publicly renounces his right to the throne, some weregild and Harry swearing that he was in a terrible agonizing state for months, the svartalves may be appaised. I also think that when Harry sees the images of the attack he will be able to convince the svartalves that Thomas was trying to fail his mission, obviously not killing Etri but he couldn't prevent Austri death because he threw himself towards him or something. That will help too. Also, Thomas' child (if all goes well and Justine does not kill them) will be a boy so Lara will name him her own heir. Which will become irrelevant later when the white court is wiped. Lara will be a very rich woman but as a Winter Lady she won't need much, so Thomas will be his administrator. In practice, he will be very rich and he will pay for the best education for his child and Maggie's.

[Bad Alias]

The White Court doesn't have heirs. The next monarch is chosen by the Court.

[StrayDog]

My current ... pay for the best education for his child and Maggie's.

Allow me to spitball the two WAGs together along with some other guesses.

Lara decided to take out Papa for reasons [many guesses] but finds that she can't because of the Outsider, hence the need for Harry. Harry being starborn is destine to take out all the vamps. Drakul wants to settle the score with Papa but Harry takes him out instead wiping out all the other Blampires. Big problem! Can't take out Papa without precautions it will cause many problems. Taking out Papa would wipe out all the other Whampires and leave the Outsider whom was attached to Papa to boot. Harry would lose his brother, his niece/nephew, his wife [who he now loves], set loose an Outsider in reality, etc. Thomas is found guilty by the Accord's Emissary, Etri wants blood but Papa volunteers to take Thomas' place in crystal. Everything goes pear shape of course and deals are made. Harry takes out Eb after the Council sends Eb to kill him, returns cane to Mother Winter and gets a favor. Lara trades places with Molly as payment for Papa/Thomas solution. Harry calls favor to be released from Winter Knight. Y'all get your Molly/Harry ship and they live happily ever after in Castle Dresden. --- and I puke in my mouth a bit more.

[Dina]

I like some things (like the Blackstaff returning) and not others. For once, I don't think killing a whampire destroys their children. So things are a little my complicated and I thought some sort of magic thingy will be used. It may be Fidelacchius, but it may be something of global range in Demonreach or in any other place. If it exists, Harry will find it. Second, the Lara/Molly thing is a little blurry. Third, I've never been a Harry/Molly shipper 

[StrayDog]

I like some things (like the Blackstaff returning) and not others. For once, I don't think killing a whampire destroys their children. So things are a little my complicated and I thought some sort of magic thingy will be used. It may be Fidelacchius, but it may be something of global range in Demonreach or in any other place. If it exists, Harry will find it. Second, the Lara/Molly thing is a little blurry. Third, I've never been a Harry/Molly shipper 

Yeah, that last comment was a bit too much of a snarky editorial on my part. The part about killing Papa, I was going on the guess that Papa Raith was the first Whampire, like the king of the Ramps was. A bit of a reach with no evidence.

[Dina]

Ah, for some reason I don't think he is so old. Or that Lara wouldn't know.

[Bad Alias]

Yeah, that last comment was a bit too much of a snarky editorial on my part. The part about killing Papa, I was going on the guess that Papa Raith was the first Whampire, like the king of the Ramps was. A bit of a reach with no evidence.

Was the Red King the first or the oldest? They were all in his bloodline. If the LotON were siblings, the curse would have still worked. Another possibility is that the Red King was the patriarch of a faction of ramps that found the Maya gods, got supercharged, and then killed all the other factions.

Papa Raith had a brother that he threw out of a plane. This leads me to believe that he wasn't the first. How would his brother have become a wamp if Papa was the first?

[Mira]

Was the Red King the first or the oldest? They were all in his bloodline. If the LotON were siblings, the curse would have still worked. Another possibility is that the Red King was the patriarch of a faction of ramps that found the Maya gods, got supercharged, and then killed all the other factions.

Papa Raith had a brother that he threw out of a plane. This leads me to believe that he wasn't the first. How would his brother have become a wamp if Papa was the first?

We have to keep in mind that though both are vampires because they feed off of others, they are nothing alike at all.  Red Court, one becomes a vamp when one is fed upon and is infected with the saliva etc.  White Court, the vamp is born with a parasite that feeds on emotions.  However a White Court vamp cannot pass the Hunger parasite on to another simply by feeding.  Though the generational spell would work, but not necessarily wipe out all White Court vamps because I the different families are separated enough.  Kill the baby of Thomas, it might wipe out all the Raiths, and possibly Harry, Eb, and little Maggie because they are blood related to Thomas, but perhaps not the other factions.

[Dina]

Not Maggie, thought. The curse would go upstream. So, it would erase first Thomas and Justine and their siblings (Harry, Lara and her sisters. I don't think Justine has any family). Then Thomas father and his siblings. And Eb, as the father of Thomas mother. It would be up there but I don't think there are older Raiths (or McCoys). So, Madrigal and other Lara's cousins will be safe too.