Mab and Lara

[Arjan]

Knowing full well what would happen, her actual aim I think was thinking that if anyone could get access to the artifacts, it would be Harry.  It was also a deal she made a deal with Marcone for him to get vengeance for Nic and Company's kidnapping of him back in Small Favor.  In other words, it was a set up.  Mab would say that she paid her debt to Nic by loaning him her Winter Knight to gain access to the vault, but at the same time takes no responsibility for her Knight going off the reservation a bit, which she knew perfectly well he'd do. So one has to wonder, is this marriage proposal a similar set up of the White Court?  Or perhaps Harry?  Molly knows something and perhaps at this time cannot divulge it, I am thinking of that cold look she gave Lara that Harry "missed" after the kracken was defeated.  I think there was more to it than simple dislike.

Harry did not get off the reservation, He waited for Nic’s betrayal and gave him what he asked for. Just like small favor Harry’s plan was based on Nic lying to him and betraying him. If NIC had told the truth about what he wanted he would have had it now.

NIC is convinced lying and betraying helps him but with Harry it seldom does.

Both Harry and Mab build their plans on that.

[Mira]

Harry did not get off the reservation, He waited for Nic’s betrayal and gave him what he asked for. Just like small favor Harry’s plan was based on Nic lying to him and betraying him. If NIC had told the truth about what he wanted he would have had it now.

NIC is convinced lying and betraying helps him but with Harry it seldom does.

Both Harry and Mab build their plainsong that.

Harry did in the sense that he kept the artifacts and I don't believe he intends to share them with Mab.  Though she may claim that Harry's aims with them are the same as hers.  However, it was a set up for revenge from the beginning, Mab never intended to "pay back any favor to Nic," nor was she trying to balance the scales,  nor did she tell Harry in advance that this was the plan, which in effect set him up as well.  Harry wanted her to know that he knows, he also got the feeling that he and Molly both had to be on the look out for "payback" from Mab for that little scene.. The proposed marriage to Lara might be part of that.  Also important to note that Mab doesn't have a problem with lying, in effect her offering Harry to Nic to help to get into the vault as a payment of a debt, was a lie.  So supposedly the Fae cannot lie, as we've seen, they can, just not outright and they are very tricky.

[Arjan]

Harry did in the sense that he kept the artifacts and I don't believe he intends to share them with Mab.  Though she may claim that Harry's aims with them are the same as hers.  However, it was a set up for revenge from the beginning, Mab never intended to "pay back any favor to Nic," nor was she trying to balance the scales,  nor did she tell Harry in advance that this was the plan, which in effect set him up as well.  Harry wanted her to know that he knows, he also got the feeling that he and Molly both had to be on the look out for "payback" from Mab for that little scene.. The proposed marriage to Lara might be part of that.  Also important to note that Mab doesn't have a problem with lying, in effect her offering Harry to Nic to help to get into the vault as a payment of a debt, was a lie.  So supposedly the Fae cannot lie, as we've seen, they can, just not outright and they are very tricky.

There was no reason for Harry not to keep the artifacts. Hades obviously agreed with it and Mab did not say anything about the spoils. He kept the diamonds as well. Nic got what he said he wanted and if NIC wanted to get out safely with the knife he should have stated his objectives better and more truthful.

Mab fully expected Harry to repay her favor to NIC and he did. That is totally separate from the other goals she had.

Mab was balancing the scales in more than one way. She is not obliged to explain everything to Harry, she wants him to figure things out, she is training his brains.

And Mab did not lie, not in the Sidhe sense of the word. She did not tell untruths. And everyone broadly knew each other’s objectives, Mab told Harry and probably Anduriel in the elevator. The only one lying and betraying was Nic and it did not help him because everyone was expecting it and even based their plans on it.

[Bad Alias]

Let's remember that this is Mab sending Harry and Molly to ally with the White Court. So WAG time.

When some alliance with the Fomor and Svartalves was happening, Lea threw in Molly to up the 'entropy' of the situation, and see it blow up. What if Mab is really pushing Molly and Harry into the White Court's arms because she needs Lara down a few pegs? Harry will make the whole thing more voltaile, and with Lara only a power BEHIND the throne, maybe chaos will see the Court fall back into chaos, after she so neatly cleared it up in White Night.

I mean, Mab did also pay a debt to Nicodemus by sending Harry...

One difference is that Harry always screwed up Nic's plans, and Harry's plans always left Lara better off than she would have been absent his involvement, excepting some minor things that involved Thomas, and not the White Court. Though, Harry always had Lara less well off than she planned whenever she thought she was the one manipulating him.

[Mira]

And Mab did not lie, not in the Sidhe sense of the word. She did not tell untruths. And everyone broadly knew each other’s objectives, Mab told Harry and probably Anduriel in the elevator. The only one lying and betraying was Nic and it did not help him because everyone was expecting it and even based their plans on it.

Oh but she did, it was Nic's understanding that she was loaning Harry to him to help him in his mission to break into the vault as pay for a favor.  However Mab's plan all along was to help Marcone get his revenge and to punish Nic for breaking the Accords when he kidnapped Marcone.  Her and Marcone along with Hades worked together for years to make this set up happen.  Since she hid all of that from Nic, she was lying by omission in every sense of the word.  That is why Harry and Molly called her on it.

[vincentric]

Oh but she did, it was Nic's understanding that she was loaning Harry to him to help him in his mission to break into the vault as pay for a favor.  However Mab's plan all along was to help Marcone get his revenge and to punish Nic for breaking the Accords when he kidnapped Marcone.  Her and Marcone along with Hades worked together for years to make this set up happen.  Since she hid all of that from Nic, she was lying by omission in every sense of the word.  That is why Harry and Molly called her on it.

All the powers in the Dresdenverse lie to each other by omission. They all work under the assumption that the others have a hidden agenda and plan accordingly.

So yes, Mab lied by omission. But the plan she made was contingent on Nicodemus not playing it straight. He lied about his objectives(Which left Harry free to grab the other artifacts as part of his share.) and he left out his intention to murder Harry, Murphy/Michael, Anna and perhaps Binder after the job. If he'd been honest about his objectives and non-homicidal, Harry would have had to be the one to first break oath when Michael objected to Nicodemus taking the Grail.

[Arjan]

Oh but she did, it was Nic's understanding that she was loaning Harry to him to help him in his mission to break into the vault as pay for a favor. 

Which he did. Which was the only thing he expected from Mab another only thing that was offered.

However Mab's plan all along was to help Marcone get his revenge and to punish Nic for breaking the Accords when he kidnapped Marcone.

Strictly speaking that was her backup plan in case NIC would betray her and Harry which to be fair was inevitable knowing Nic’s nature.

  Her and Marcone along with Hades worked together for years to make this set up happen.  Since she hid all of that from Nic, she was lying by omission in every sense of the word. 

To have a plan ready in case NIC betrays you is just common sense. In fact she offered Nic a chance to be honest and get most of what he wanted but Nic stated his goal in a way meant to make it easier for him to betray Harry and of course it backfired.

Just like small favor it showed that lying and betraying is not always the best way to reach your goal especially not against the Sidhe, it gives them a handle to get at you.

That is why Harry and Molly called her on it.

Calling Mab on it was not about how she handled Nic. It was about how she handled Harry and Molly.

[Arjan]

All the powers in the Dresdenverse lie to each other by omission. They all work under the assumption that the others have a hidden agenda and plan accordingly.

So yes, Mab lied by omission.

Not really. Lying by omission in this case is leaving out some information so the other party gets the wrong idea about your intentions. Nic never got the wrong idea about what Harry and Mab wanted to do. Only about the how and when.

Nic probably had a better idea about what Mab wanted to do and what her limitations were than Harry.

But the plan she made was contingent on Nicodemus not playing it straight. He lied about his objectives(Which left Harry free to grab the other artifacts as part of his share.) and he left out his intention to murder Harry, Murphy/Michael, Anna and perhaps Binder after the job. If he'd been honest about his objectives and non-homicidal, Harry would have had to be the one to first break oath when Michael objected to Nicodemus taking the Grail.

Which would make it difficult or even impossible for Michael to help him which would have doomed Harry.

Nic only had to play it honest and he would have won and Mab could have done nothing about it and she knew. But she also knew that Nicodemus would never play it honest. He asked for the winter knight to get the opportunity to kill him.

She set him up of course but only so she could better plan for his betrayal.

[morriswalters]

If the whole White Court doesn't know Lara is in control then they are dunces.  Using daddy as a cats paw makes her stronger because of what it says about her ability to do a thing that the White Court values highly.

What Lara is marrying is the Mantle.  What she gets from it is a chance to call on the Courts if she needs them. What Mab gets from it is the connections in the real world that she would otherwise not have. There may be other things that Jim has thought of. 

Harry is safe as long as he is Mab's champion.  While Lara can dominate Harry she can't dominate the Mantle.  Mab would kill her or the Mantle would, if she betrays the bargain, and she is perfectly safe if she doesn't.

On the matter of Skin Game, no one was lying at any time. There were mutual obligations involved and they were acting as courtesy demanded.  Nic knew that Mab was out to end him.  Mab knew Nic would kill Harry as soon as he had what he went to the vault to get. Hades needed to know that Harry could win in a contest against Nicodemus in this context. Mab actually states it explicitly.

Mab can't use the weapons.  They have to be wielded by humans. And her court isn't a safe place to hold them.  Demonreach is perfect for that use in that context.

One of the side effects of putting Thomas in stir is that it removes him as a tool.  Neither Harry of Lara can use him.

One side note mentioned in another thread.  This, we're going to take a boat trip, is getting old and stale.  Since Harry can't use the ways to get to Demonreach then the teleportation used by Marcone is a perfect plot device to cut out boat trips.

[Mira]

On the matter of Skin Game, no one was lying at any time. There were mutual obligations involved and they were acting as courtesy demanded.  Nic knew that Mab was out to end him.  Mab knew Nic would kill Harry as soon as he had what he went to the vault to get. Hades needed to know that Harry could win in a contest against Nicodemus in this context. Mab actually states it explicitly.

 But Harry was lied to by Mab, the lie of omission because she never leveled with him from the beginning.  She kept Molly away from him because she'd have told him the truth of what was really going on.  That is what the final confrontation between Harry, Molly, Marcone and Mab was all about at the end of Skin Game.

"You could have told me from the beginning," I said to Mab.

He then goes on, on the next page.

Then Mab finally spoke, her voice sepulchral.  "Do you have a point, my Knight?"
"I wanted to let you know that I knew,"I said.

He didn't say it outright, but the implication is clear, he was lied to from the beginning and as a result an innocent died, Murphy was severely crippled, and a Holy Sword was broken.  It doesn't matter that Nic knew that Mab wanted to end him, the mission was a set up supposedly as far as
Harry knew to repay a favor, which put him under constraints from the beginning. Mab still lied to him.  That is why Molly was there, she was backing him up, because Mab made her part of the lie by keeping her away from Harry. 

That is why Mab appears to be so pissed in this scene, she had lied to her Knight and he called her on it.

[Arjan]

It was to repay a favour. That was why Harry could bring Murphy with him. Because NIC brought his Spawn with him when he earned that favor.

And Mab was pissed because she was working on her alliance with Marcone and Harry was probably going to endanger that. He was the elephant walking in the percelain shop of diplomacy. He did threaten to fight Marcone if he did not take the weregeld

[Mira]

It was to repay a favour. That was why Harry could bring Murphy with him. Because NIC brought his Spawn with him when he earned that favor.

*That isn't the point, the point is Mab claimed it was to repay a favor, but what she really was doing was aiding Marcone to set up Nic for pay back and revenge, years in the making.  She only told Harry it was to repay a favor and he had to stand by the bargain.

[Arjan]

*That isn't the point, the point is Mab claimed it was to repay a favor, but what she really was doing was aiding Marcone to set up Nic for pay back and revenge, years in the making.  She only told Harry it was to repay a favor and he had to stand by the bargain.

She did that too. Mab was balancing all her scales but she told Harry that in the elevator. She told Harry exactly what was expected from him. She did not tell him just to help Nic, she had other expectations from him. She was pretty clear about that too. When Harry told her about the setup her answer was more like duh, of course. Why do you tell me that.

Harry and Molly were pissed of because of Mab stopping his messengers and derailing Molly.

[Mira]

She did that too. Mab was balancing all her scales but she told Harry that in the elevator. She told Harry exactly what was expected from him. She did not tell him just to help Nic, she had other expectations from him. She was pretty clear about that too. When Harry told her about the setup her answer was more like duh, of course. Why do you tell me that.

Harry and Molly were pissed of because of Mab stopping his messengers and derailing Molly.

Her expectations don't count, she lied, she said she was repaying a debt and wanted Harry to help her do that.  After he did that, for him to be himself.. Nothing said about it being a set up for revenge, so a lie..

[Arjan]

Her expectations don't count, she lied, she said she was repaying a debt and wanted Harry to help her do that. 

That is literary true. She has to balance that scale. Literally. It is important for Mab to fullfill that debt. It is an important part of Harry's task.

After he did that, for him to be himself..

As if Harry did not understand what that meant between him and Nick . But there is a lot more in that discussion and it ends with:

“If you want to live, if you want your friends and family to live, I expect you to do more than survive it,” Mab said, sweeping out. “I expect you to skin them alive.”

So no doubt about what Mab wants from Harry.

Nothing said about it being a set up for revenge, so a lie..

Mab is not expected to tell Harry all her motivations especially not when Anduriel is in earshot but her motives are hardly a secret. Harry had all the information to do what he had to do. The rest is operational security. Just like Harry could not tell all to everyone.