Author Topic: Manipulative Harry  (Read 2536 times)

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Manipulative Harry
« on: January 27, 2021, 11:34:12 PM »
Instead of derailing another thread into whether or not the White Court would respect Harry as Lara's husband because they see him as a dumb brute, I'll deal with it here. I'll list what I think are situations in which he manipulated people into doing what he wanted in a way that the White Court might respect, then I'll list the effect it would have.

The Books:

Storm Front: I don't see anything.

Fool Moon: I don't see anything.

Grave Peril: He manipulates Lea into letting him go.

Summer Knight: I don't see anything other than Mab appreciating what Harry did in GP.

Death Masks: I don't see anything.

Blood Rites: Lara declares that Harry has "made me the cat's-paw for you, Dresden. While making me think I had the advantage of you. You've played me at my own game, and ably."

Dead Beat: Though he didn't intend any of it, he managed to get the Wardens to help him get hold of the Word of Kemmler and deliver it to Mavra. And get put on the Wardens payroll at the same time.

Proven Guilty: He bested the Merlin in Molly's trial. The Merlin had to use his brute institutional strength to beat Harry. Then Harry used a parliamentarian/procedural trick to stop the Merlin, with the help of the Gatekeeper, until enough of the Senior Council showed up to give Harry what he wanted.

This was done in front of many Council Members and the Summer Lady and Knight.

White Night: He turned a White Court scheme being run by all three major houses to his advantage. He got the paranet going, acquired a big obligation from the Little Folk, and got a big reputational boost among them as well.

Small Favor: He manipulated Nicodemus into defeat. Nicodemus had won. Dresden convinced him to risk everything he had gained, and he lost all of it.

Turn Coat: He manipulated the White Council into fighting Shagnasty. He appeared to manipulate the White Court into doing the same, but iirc, Lara was in on it. He manipulated Peabody into incriminating himself.

Changes: He dealed with Mab in a scheming manner that she respected.

Ghost Story: I don't see anything, other than Mab's confirmation of what I said for Changes.

Cold Days: He was in deep with Faeries and Outsiders and managed to see through several misdirections. (But didn't catch some based on what the Redcap said in BG).

Skin Game: He once again duped Nicodemus. He saw what Mab and Marcone were doing.

Peace Talks: He put the White Court under his thumb. He shamed Marcone because Marcone lost custody of a helpless prisoner. He manipulated a member of the Senior Council into doing his bidding. He tricked another Senior Council member into fighting a whatever you call his double on the dock.

Battle Ground: He "manipulated" a massive army of the Little Folk into fighting for him. He got the eye, denied it, and by doing so, got Marcone to give him a super warded castle. He also convinced the Accorded Members present to pay a weregild to the mortals.

Short Stories:

In B is for Bigfoot, Harry manages to achieve his goals without any direct action. He did what he was hired to do without causing any trouble with the Svartalves.

In Jury Duty, Harry's in the middle of the conflict between the White Court and Marcone.

The effect:

I'm not sure how widely known Harry's tricking of Lea in GP would be.

I don't think anyone would be able to easily piece together what Harry did in BR, so I don't think we should count that one.

From DB, I'm not sure who would know enough to draw any conclusions other than Mavra. She, at least, should understand that he isn't just a brute.

PG is the first thing he's done that people in the community are likely to know about. Faeries trade secrets all the time. Everyone in Titania's court had a big laugh about how he spent the favor from Titania. Enough of them probably got the story of how he got the favor to spread it around sufficiently for anyone who wanted information on Harry to get the story too.

From WN, everyone should know that he foiled the Skavis and Malvora plans. Whether or not they were able to piece together what he got out of Lara is less certain, but the Little Folk certainly know, and they don't guard information all that closely. I'm not sure if the White Court would be aware of the weregild paid out to Harry, but the sharper members of the Court and broader community should be able to piece it together.

I'm not sure how widely known the details of his defeat of Nicodemus in SmF would be. The White and Black Council's should know as Luccio was involved.

What he did in TC would be widely known in the Council and the White Court. Different particulars might be fuzzy in each, but they'd be known.

I don't think any but Demonreach, Bonnie, Molly, Mab, Kincaid, and Harry know that he almost out foxed Mab in Changes.

The White Court would be aware that they attacked a bunch of cultists during CD. Probably that it was at the direction of Dresden.

I don't think his exploits in PT would be widely known. Which is the point of a lot of scheming.

I think everything he did in BG will be widely known.

Harry's actions in B is for Bigfoot probably made an impression on Svartalves. They probably don't share information as freely as other elements of the supernatural world.

In Jury Duty, he foiled a White Court plan, but he was Marcone's cats-paw at the time.

Conclusion:

I think any supernatural player that wants to develop a dossier on Harry ought to be able to get enough information to figure out he isn't just a dumb brute. Fairies and members of the White Court are especially well positioned to do this. The supernaturals that think Harry is a dumb brute are pretty much going to be the ones that Harry has to worry the least about because they will be the least informed, most arrogant, and/or stupidest.

Thoughts?

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Manipulative Harry
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 05:01:15 PM »
In my opinion the only person on the White Court (besides Thomas) who probably respects Dresden is Lara.  One thing about manipulitive people is they are often arrogant.

Harry is quite capable of manipulation.  He could actually be an expert.  He's mostly limited in manipulation by his code of honor, protecting the innocent, and desire to be a good person.  He's somewhat limited beause of his youth in comparison to some of the baddies out there, but he's learning fast.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Manipulative Harry
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 05:16:38 PM »
Vitto respected him, but he's not in the White Court anymore. The remaining cream of the crop did see that he planned on being betrayed in the Raith Deeps. I'd expect the young vampires from Bigfoot on Campus and Jury Duty have some level of respect for Harry.1

Any White Court vampire with half a brain should want to learn as much as they can about Harry. Doing so would lead to the conclusion that he isn't just a dumb brute. Any White Court vampire that concludes Harry is just a dumb brute doesn't have half a brain.

1: I just realized that Harry and River Shoulders will be very loosely related through marriages if Harry marries Lara and Irwin marries Connie. Something like wife's cousin's(?) husband's father.

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Manipulative Harry
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2021, 05:19:15 PM »
Vitto respected him, but he's not in the White Court anymore. The remaining cream of the crop did see that he planned on being betrayed in the Raith Deeps. I'd expect the young vampires from Bigfoot on Campus and Jury Duty have some level of respect for Harry.1

Any White Court vampire with half a brain should want to learn as much as they can about Harry. Doing so would lead to the conclusion that he isn't just a dumb brute. Any White Court vampire that concludes Harry is just a dumb brute doesn't have half a brain.

1: I just realized that Harry and River Shoulders will be very loosely related through marriages if Harry marries Lara and Irwin marries Connie. Something like wife's cousin's(?) husband's father.

Harry has survived so much, anyone who considers him a brute, is in for a rude awakening.  Haha Yeah I expect River Shoulders to be a the wedding!
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2208
    • View Profile
Re: Manipulative Harry
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2021, 05:31:46 PM »
Harry has survived so much, anyone who considers him a brute, is in for a rude awakening.
I prefer his enemies to be intelligent and competent. I think it makes for a better story. With the information available to them, if they think he's just a dumb brute, we're not getting the best story. Unless we have six of one and a half dozen of the other like in WN where Madrigal was an idiot who underestimated Harry while Vitto wasn't and let Madrigal know how he felt about it. That gives us the best of both worlds. The bad guys do something stupid that let's Harry gain some advantage while the bad guys are also not stupid, so they still feel like a credible threat in the book.

Haha Yeah I expect River Shoulders to be a the wedding!
In his old school tux, but without his glasses because he isn't worried about looking friendly to the people who have an interest in harming his son?

(How did lol become a thing when haha already existed and seems so much less artificial)?

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Manipulative Harry
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2021, 07:55:11 PM »
I prefer his enemies to be intelligent and competent. I think it makes for a better story. With the information available to them, if they think he's just a dumb brute, we're not getting the best story. Unless we have six of one and a half dozen of the other like in WN where Madrigal was an idiot who underestimated Harry while Vitto wasn't and let Madrigal know how he felt about it. That gives us the best of both worlds. The bad guys do something stupid that let's Harry gain some advantage while the bad guys are also not stupid, so they still feel like a credible threat in the book.
In his old school tux, but without his glasses because he isn't worried about looking friendly to the people who have an interest in harming his son?

(How did lol become a thing when haha already existed and seems so much less artificial)?

I use both haha and lol.  I used to think lol meant lots of love lol.  I think that lol is just faster to type because of the location on the keyboard.

I think Harry's enemies will be smart.  I think we are getting deeper into the Black Council's motives, the Black Court and so forth.  Harry has pretty much faced, and beat down the lower tier enemies.  Now he's getting into the big leagues, facing those with both the power, and cunning to be in the positions they are in.

Drakul
Cowl
Marcone
Nicodemus
White Council
Nemesis
Mab

All of them (and more) have their motives.  We still don't know what they are...  I can't wait to find out.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: Manipulative Harry
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2021, 08:37:16 PM »
In my opinion he's just getting better at balancing things, like the bindings he put on the Winter Queens in BG over debt owed.
In the beginning he was denying Leah and suffering for it before his trick with the mushrooms. I consider that a balance too though.. the original deal was unfair, he deserved a chance and he was willing to die for it more or less. He aggressively renegotiated the original deal as being inequitable lol.