MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]

[Bad Alias]

We have him in Changes, Cold Days (at least twice), Skin Game, and Christmas Eve. Each time he's acting in a teaching role. He seldom just gives Harry an answer. He usually leads him to the conclusion.

If you really want to stretch it, we could make an argument for the Erlking.

[Megan Marie]

First off I'll say I need help with the Norse stuff (I'm in nursing school and have absolutely no business reading a book for pleasure, or being on this forum, but I don't have time to do the research myself).
Why did Murphy and Hendricks go to Valhalla? I'm a little disappointed she doesn't go to Heaven? She's appeared in Harry's sight as an angel, I figured she'd be going straight up.
Is Valhalla heaving for Vikings? Will she be able to come back and fight as an undead soldier? Does that mean her soul can't be at rest? At least she didn't end up with her dad in Chicago other...

Thanks for the help if someone can tell me if she's in a better place or not?

Megan

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'm really late to this conversation.  I never saw Murphy as Harry's mentor.  In the last few books she was (mostly) Harry's friend and moral compass.  I'm not saying I liked the way Jim wrote her in the last three or four books, that's just my general impression of what her character's role was.

My feeling is that several years ago; maybe as far back as Changes, Jim decided that Murphy had to go, and I'll get into why later.  (Not that I really know why, so I'm going to be really vague about that.)  So, it's not that Murphy could no longer keep up with Harry and that made her character superfluous to the story.  It's that Jim wanted Harry to go in a new direction; one that doesn't involve finding his soulmate, at least not at the present time within the overall story.  Of course, with that whole "die alone" motif being repeated, you have to wonder if Harry will ever find a permanent romantic partner. 

To get back on point, Jim wanted Harry to become permanently removed from his best friend, the women he loved and his (sometimes) moral compass so his new course will be more of a high wire act than it already was.  I think Jim crippled Murphy as a way for Harry to see her as someone who could no longer remain in the larger game he was playing and as a way to make her death more poignant.  Murphy taking out the Jotun when she really shouldn't have been on the battlefield makes it a better death; sort of, except for Rudolph.

I'm not saying it was a good decision for Jim to make.  Only time will tell us one way or the other.  Even with what I see as the character's flaws since Changes, Karrin Murphy was the every person or mortal point of view and I think there is some risk in Jim removing her.  Michael Carpenter is in no way a substitute for Murphy's point of view because he knows the supernatural world and many of the major players, and even some of the minor players within it.       

[KurtinStGeorge]

Why did Murphy and Hendricks go to Valhalla? I'm a little disappointed she doesn't go to Heaven? She's appeared in Harry's sight as an angel, I figured she'd be going straight up.

Essentially she was claimed by Odin because she fought and killed his people's personal enemies.  The thing about Harry's image of Murphy as an angle is that was just his somewhat romantic way of interpreting what her soul looked like.

Is Valhalla heaving for Vikings? Will she be able to come back and fight as an undead soldier? Does that mean her soul can't be at rest? At least she didn't end up with her dad in Chicago other...

Yes and no.  It's more like where exceptional Viking warriors go to party after their first death.  They don't get to comeback to earth as Einherjar soldiers until their memory is lost to everyone who knew them.  So if Harry lived another 400 years and out lived every other mortal in the story who knew Murphy, not until at least 400 years and a day have passed.  All of the Einherjar will eventually die permanently at Ragnorak with Odin and unless Jim has that happen in the BAT, maybe not for thousands of years.  So, Murphy's soul will eventually get to where it should go.

I wonder if we will meet the Valkyrie; the Chooser of the Slain, who chose Murphy.  It couldn't have been Sigrun and her sister would have been with Lara.  Well, there has to be more than just two of them.

[Mira]

My feeling is that several years ago; maybe as far back as Changes, Jim decided that Murphy had to go, and I'll get into why later.  (Not that I really know why, so I'm going to be really vague about that.)  So, it's not that Murphy could no longer keep up with Harry and that made her character superfluous to the story.  It's that Jim wanted Harry to go in a new direction; one that doesn't involve finding his soulmate, at least not at the present time within the overall story.  Of course, with that whole "die alone" motif being repeated, you have to wonder if Harry will ever find a permanent romantic partner.

I agree with this, Murphy was a cop's cop in the early books, it fit her character well and it was a good foil for Harry the wizard detective.  Once she left the police force however to my mind Jim struggled with the character.  He did take her to her logical conclusion, lover of Harry and found a contrived way for her die after an heroic deed, though her actual death was a stupid accident. I don't think Harry will ever find the perfect romantic partner, but I also don't think he will die alone, he will be surrounded by family.. But honestly that was a lame death curse on the part of Cassius, as Malcolm told Harry, everyone dies alone.

[Arjan]

Essentially she was claimed by Odin because she fought and killed his people's personal enemies.  The thing about Harry's image of Murphy as an angle is that was just his somewhat romantic way of interpreting what her soul looked like.

Yes and no.  It's more like where exceptional Viking warriors go to party after their first death.  They don't get to comeback to earth as Einherjar soldiers until their memory is lost to everyone who knew them.  So if Harry lived another 400 years and out lived every other mortal in the story who knew Murphy, not until at least 400 years and a day have passed.  All of the Einherjar will eventually die permanently at Ragnorak with Odin and unless Jim has that happen in the BAT, maybe not for thousands of years.  So, Murphy's soul will eventually get to where it should go.

That is one interpretation. The other is that Murphy’s soul is exactly were it should be and this is what’s next for her. She will be raised again every time she dies and feast again. She chose for that when she decided to fight and die as a Viking warrior and maybe Vadderung had negotiated with Uriel about her.

Just like other souls end up in Hades. Not that many anymore but they do. I do not get the impression that hades is a limited stay so why would walhalla be one? Is this Christian exceptionalism?

[Mira]

Just like other souls end up in Hades. Not that many anymore but they do. I do not get the impression that hades is a limited stay so why would walhalla be one? Is this Christian exceptionalism?

When you say Hades it gets a little complicated, because in classic mythology, all dead go to Hades, it is the realm of the dead, there are areas like heaven for the good souls and areas like hell for the not so good souls. 

[Megan Marie]

You totally made me feel better!! Thanks! And thanks for the extra about them not being able to come back to fight until all the living memory is passed. Answered what would have been my next question!

I'm really late to this conversation.  I never saw Murphy as Harry's mentor.  In the last few books she was (mostly) Harry's friend and moral compass.  I'm not saying I liked the way Jim wrote her in the last three or four books, that's just my general impression of what her character's role was.

My feeling is that several years ago; maybe as far back as Changes, Jim decided that Murphy had to go, and I'll get into why later.  (Not that I really know why, so I'm going to be really vague about that.)  So, it's not that Murphy could no longer keep up with Harry and that made her character superfluous to the story.  It's that Jim wanted Harry to go in a new direction; one that doesn't involve finding his soulmate, at least not at the present time within the overall story.  Of course, with that whole "die alone" motif being repeated, you have to wonder if Harry will ever find a permanent romantic partner. 

To get back on point, Jim wanted Harry to become permanently removed from his best friend, the women he loved and his (sometimes) moral compass so his new course will be more of a high wire act than it already was.  I think Jim crippled Murphy as a way for Harry to see her as someone who could no longer remain in the larger game he was playing and as a way to make her death more poignant.  Murphy taking out the Jotun when she really shouldn't have been on the battlefield makes it a better death; sort of, except for Rudolph.

I'm not saying it was a good decision for Jim to make.  Only time will tell us one way or the other.  Even with what I see as the character's flaws since Changes, Karrin Murphy was the every person or mortal point of view and I think there is some risk in Jim removing her.  Michael Carpenter is in no way a substitute for Murphy's point of view because he knows the supernatural world and many of the major players, and even some of the minor players within it.     

[Arjan]

When you say Hades it gets a little complicated, because in classic mythology, all dead go to Hades, it is the realm of the dead, there are areas like heaven for the good souls and areas like hell for the not so good souls.

But that is not what the god Hades tells Harry in Skin Game. He used to get more souls but now he only get specific ones. Just like Vadderung.

[jmotivator]

I think the thing that saddened me the most after her death, of course, was that in my mind she was always meant to take up Amoracchius, the sword of love.  I mean, she was Dresden's love, she was a martial artist trained in swords, and she was a Catholic.  The only reason she didn't was because she was a Chicago police Lieutenant, but once she lost that job there was nothing in her way.

She would have made a great Knight of the Cross.

[Mira]

But that is not what the god Hades tells Harry in Skin Game. He used to get more souls but now he only get specific ones. Just like Vadderung.

Yeah, well, I am just going by classic Greek and Roman Mythology.  But it still tracks with what Hades said, even if he doesn't get as many souls as he used to, he still judges them and I imagine they get what they deserve whether they go to the place where he rewards them or to the place where they are punished.

I think the thing that saddened me the most after her death, of course, was that in my mind she was always meant to take up Amoracchius, the sword of love.  I mean, she was Dresden's love, she was a martial artist trained in swords, and she was a Catholic.  The only reason she didn't was because she was a Chicago police Lieutenant, but once she lost that job there was nothing in her way.

She would have made a great Knight of the Cross.

No, she had that choice, to be a Holy Knight and she refused it.  For a couple of reasons, first one being she didn't like being a sock puppet for an angel.  That happened at C.I. when she wielded the Sword of Faith, and if you remember Butters was more or less taken over by an angel a lot of the time during Battle Ground. She was a short term Holy Knight.  She also had her own ideas of what justice is and what should happen to Denarians, which runs totally contrary to the rules governing the Swords.  That is how she broke the Sword of Faith.   

[Arjan]

Yeah, well, I am just going by classic Greek and Roman Mythology.  But it still tracks with what Hades said, even if he doesn't get as many souls as he used to, he still judges them and I imagine they get what they deserve whether they go to the place where he rewards them or to the place where they are punished.

That is fine but the old stories are not completely reliable in the dresdenverse as is stated more than once. If directly contradicted by a reliable source I take that as more important.

So vakyries are not virgins and there are more than one realms of the dead governed by different gods .

[Mira]

That is fine but the old stories are not completely reliable in the dresdenverse as is stated more than once. If directly contradicted by a reliable source I take that as more important.

So vakyries are not virgins and there are more than one realms of the dead governed by different gods .

But the point is, Hades isn't just about punishment, it can be about reward as well.  Hades said nothing to contradict that, he only said they get fewer souls than they used to get.  He also added if Nic thought there would be less punishment in his realm for his daughter, he was very mistaken.

[morriswalters]

No, she had that choice, to be a Holy Knight and she refused it.  For a couple of reasons, first one being she didn't like being a sock puppet for an angel.  That happened at C.I. when she wielded the Sword of Faith, and if you remember Butters was more or less taken over by an angel a lot of the time during Battle Ground. She was a short term Holy Knight.  She also had her own ideas of what justice is and what should happen to Denarians, which runs totally contrary to the rules governing the Swords.  That is how she broke the Sword of Faith.

It was a story choice.  If Murphy didn't get anything it was because Jim didn't want her to as a character.  And this is true for every female character in the story. It's a shame really.  You knew at the outset when they had sex that she was doomed.  I would guess Mab is as well.

It could have well been written another way. She could have went to heaven.  Which given her Catholicism would seemed to have been a better choice. Or she could have joined the Librarians in DC. He wanted her dead and out of the way for this arc with Lara.

[Arjan]

But the point is, Hades isn't just about punishment, it can be about reward as well.  Hades said nothing to contradict that, he only said they get fewer souls than they used to get.  He also added if Nic thought there would be less punishment in his realm for his daughter, he was very mistaken.

Not my point. My point was about Murphy staying with Vadderung for eternity. 

Nicodemus was not mistaken, he lied.