MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]

[Mira]

He can not indulge too much because of the children and his other responsibilities.

Exactly, now grief will have it's way from time to time, no matter what Harry does.  However he cannot afford the luxury of indulging himself in it's depths, the world is moving on rapidly and he has to move with it.

[Telynn]

It was worse when she half turned and left Chicago.  Harry went on a super guilt trip, even close to if not clinical depression over that.  When she died, it was bad, mostly Harry not wanting to face his daughter, but though he felt guilty I also think that Harry knew there was no other way to save any of them.  Yes, he is going to mourn Murphy for quite sometime, but it isn't just him anymore, he has a child to consider, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.

Murphy hurts worse then any loss so far.  Murphy wasn't just the woman he loved.  Murphy was his best friend.  His confidant.  His sounding board.  The one he could always turn to.  Moving it into the romance field was just one more aspect of their relationship.  He loved Susan.  But at the time she got half turned could you honestly say she had bigger hold on him then Murphy did toward the end, even before romance entered into it?

[bigdangmoose]

I understand what you're saying. I just disagree. I think Jim's talented enough to have Murphy find a new purpose. It's not really that complicated. Especially after the events of BG (minus Murphy's death). It would easy to imagine Murphy being rehired as a captain in charge of a much larger S.I. once the Chicago government came to terms with the existence of the supernatural. Plenty of people on here theorized she'd get a job with the Librarians or the FBI.

All that said, my only problem with Murphy dying is if we have to deal Harry constantly moping about it. We've already read that book more than once with regards to Susan.

But Murphy would never be cleared for active duty. She is physically crippled. That's what I'm getting at. She wouldn't and couldn't sit by while others did the work for her. She has never done that in any book when she was able to. It's what lead to her being killed. It's her character to the core. So to return Murphy to the fight, he killed her to restore her body. To have Jim write her into being a desk jockey would be demeaning to the character that she is. To think that it would work is wishful thinking. Yes, Jim is a talented writer, but to pull off what you want, he would have had to change her character 5 books ago, not a complete character change in one. And he couldn't do that because he needed her to take over for Harry while he was dead.

As for the mourning over her, with Susan, it was by his hand. He cut her throat. Murphy is a different case. He got to mourn over her after she died. He is still mourning, but a)it wasn't by his hand, b) he knows Murphy wouldn't want him to go into the dive he did after Susan, and c) he was able to deal with it after her death instead of bottling it up like he did with Susan, he was able to cry for the loss of her.

[Bad Alias]

It was worse when she half turned and left Chicago.  Harry went on a super guilt trip, even close to if not clinical depression over that.  When she died, it was bad, mostly Harry not wanting to face his daughter, but though he felt guilty I also think that Harry knew there was no other way to save any of them.  Yes, he is going to mourn Murphy for quite sometime, but it isn't just him anymore, he has a child to consider, that makes a heck of a lot of difference.

I agree. I don't mind Harry being sad or mourning. I'd imagine he's going to miss Murphy for the rest of his life. I just don't want the books to be overly focused on it.

Murphy hurts worse then any loss so far.  Murphy wasn't just the woman he loved.  Murphy was his best friend.  His confidant.  His sounding board.  The one he could always turn to.  Moving it into the romance field was just one more aspect of their relationship.  He loved Susan.  But at the time she got half turned could you honestly say she had bigger hold on him then Murphy did toward the end, even before romance entered into it?

I think you make an excellent point. Murphy's been Harry's best friend since Summer Knight.

She wouldn't and couldn't sit by while others did the work for her. She has never done that in any book when she was able to.

Emphasis added. She did in Death Masks. And she did several times when she wasn't able to.

To have Jim write her into being a desk jockey would be demeaning to the character that she is. To think that it would work is wishful thinking.

I disagree. I think you underestimate the importance of leadership and management. I think it's demeaning to her character to say she was only useful as gun slinger. She had a lot more going for her. I think it would be demeaning to her character if she couldn't cope with not being in the midst of the action and crumbled because of it.

Yes, Jim is a talented writer, but to pull off what you want, he would have had to change her character 5 books ago, not a complete character change in one.

I didn't say that's what I wanted. I said Jim could have done it if he wanted. It wasn't necessary for the story to kill Murphy. It was a choice Jim made. I'm fine with that choice for several reasons.

1. Killing main characters is one way to keep/amp up dramatic tension.
2. I don't dislike her, except in FM, but Murphy's never been one of my favorites. I probably would have been upset if Jim had killed Marcone, Bob, Toot, Sanya, Butters, or any number of other characters. I'm kinda upset that he killed Wild Bill. I wanted to spend more time with him.
3. Jim might not have wanted to go in a direction where Harry needs an administrator, or he might have someone else in mind for that role. (Just as long as it's not Harry because that is too much of a character shift).

It wouldn't be a complete character change. Murphy has always been a leader. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be difficult for her, but crippling injuries are difficult and people adjust to them. If that's how Jim wanted it, Murphy could have too.

[BrainFireBob]

You do realize the five or so year older Murphy was, in facr, one of Harry's mentors?

It was time for a mentor to bite it.

[Snark Knight]

As for the mourning over her, with Susan, it was by his hand. He cut her throat. Murphy is a different case. He got to mourn over her after she died. He is still mourning, but a)it wasn't by his hand, b) he knows Murphy wouldn't want him to go into the dive he did after Susan, and c) he was able to deal with it after her death instead of bottling it up like he did with Susan, he was able to cry for the loss of her.

He was more messed up when Susan was half-turned and ran away than when he actually killed her.

[Telynn]

He was more messed up when Susan was half-turned and ran away than when he actually killed her.

Well, it was only like a day afterwards and he was shot and killed.

[Mira]

He was more messed up when Susan was half-turned and ran away than when he actually killed her.

I agree, that is when he went into a full depression in the classic sense.  When he killed her, she had fully turned, so not really Susan.  Her last human words were for him to do it to save their daughter. He knows he really didn't have a choice in the matter, it was still bad for him.

[Bad Alias]

You do realize the five or so year older Murphy was, in facr, one of Harry's mentors?

It was time for a mentor to bite it.

Three years, according to the timeline. I'm not sure if you're joking or not about the mentor thing.

[Mira]

Three years, according to the timeline. I'm not sure if you're joking or not about the mentor thing.

The time line may be off, or in the earlier short stories Harry is wrong, because I was rereading some of the short stories while waiting for Battle Ground to come out and in one of them Harry describes Murphy and says she is about five years older than himself.

[BrainFireBob]

The time line may be off, or in the earlier short stories Harry is wrong, because I was rereading some of the short stories while waiting for Battle Ground to come out and in one of them Harry describes Murphy and says she is about five years older than himself.

Correct. And Murphy was a mentor to him in terms of sparring, survival, and as an investigator.

Structurally, death of a mentor is due. Michael, another mentor figure, was injured but not eliminated in a prior book.

[bigdangmoose]

Correct. And Murphy was a mentor to him in terms of sparring, survival, and as an investigator.

Structurally, death of a mentor is due. Michael, another mentor figure, was injured but not eliminated in a prior book.

I made a similar point in the thread who's going to die in BG. It's not just a mentor thing. Jim has been dismantling Harry's team and life since I believe I said SmF. Go back and take a look at the thread. Maybe now though he is going to start getting his life back together now that he has his home back and upgraded. And possibly Bob. We will just have to wait and see.

[Mira]

I made a similar point in the thread who's going to die in BG. It's not just a mentor thing. Jim has been dismantling Harry's team and life since I believe I said SmF. Go back and take a look at the thread. Maybe now though he is going to start getting his life back together now that he has his home back and upgraded. And possibly Bob. We will just have to wait and see.

I think it is more of a reshuffling of the deck chairs of his life.  Harry, in the first half of the series was more or less a detective wizard.  With Changes that began to radically change, it has to because the set up for the BAT needs a different set of supporters and enemies than he had in the first half of the series.

[Bad Alias]

Structurally, death of a mentor is due.

Structurally, the death of the mentor isn't part of the Hero's Journey. Also, basically everything could be a mentor. In my opinion, the Hero's Journey is so vague as to be useless as any sort of analytical framework.

[BrainFireBob]

Structurally, the death of the mentor isn't part of the Hero's Journey. Also, basically everything could be a mentor. In my opinion, the Hero's Journey is so vague as to be useless as any sort of analytical framework.

Which is irrelevant to what I said. Harry needs to stand on his own merits without needing mentors.