Author Topic: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]  (Read 14151 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2020, 05:56:26 PM »
Not my point. My point was about Murphy staying with Vadderung for eternity.  :)

Nicodemus was not mistaken, he lied.

Perhaps.  I am not sure that that is such a good ending for her though, unless in the BAT Harry is killed in battle and goes off to exist with her happily ever after for all eternity, well, almost, in Valhalla.

Offline Arjan

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2020, 06:07:27 PM »
Perhaps.  I am not sure that that is such a good ending for her though, unless in the BAT Harry is killed in battle and goes off to exist with her happily ever after for all eternity, well, almost, in Valhalla.
She wanted to be involved. She wanted to be there were it is happening. Now she will.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2020, 09:30:28 PM »
But honestly that was a lame death curse on the part of Cassius, as Malcolm told Harry, everyone dies alone.
I've always taken it as a curse about Harry losing his Denarius. If I'm right, Cassius helped save Harry's soul.

Is this Christian exceptionalism?
I think it's more that Norse mythology says that they all die at Ragnarok.

Offline Arjan

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #63 on: October 30, 2020, 10:02:38 PM »
I've always taken it as a curse about Harry losing his Denarius. If I'm right, Cassius helped save Harry's soul.
I think it's more that Norse mythology says that they all die at Ragnarok.
But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world. It is not just about destruction, it is also about rebirth.

But I do not think the apocalypse or ragnarok are inevitable things in the dresdenverse. Everyone is very much working against it and for Nicodemus it is more a state of mind than an actual event.

The real apocalypse was something people were looking forward to. It says something about how happy they were.
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Offline Mira

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2020, 08:10:38 PM »
But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world. It is not just about destruction, it is also about rebirth.

But I do not think the apocalypse or ragnarok are inevitable things in the dresdenverse. Everyone is very much working against it and for Nicodemus it is more a state of mind than an actual event.

The real apocalypse was something people were looking forward to. It says something about how happy they were.

The BAT could be Ragnarok, Murphy would return then and her and Harry could happily kick ass together.. 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2020, 09:39:06 PM »
But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world.
My understanding has always been that the Einherjaren would all die during Ragnarok. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.

Offline Mira

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2020, 01:29:35 AM »
My understanding has always been that the Einherjaren would all die during Ragnarok. I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.
Well then, they can die a second time and ascend together up to Heaven on the back of Mouse... 

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2020, 01:08:03 PM »
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They don't get to comeback to earth as Einherjar soldiers until their memory is lost to everyone who knew them.  So if Harry lived another 400 years and out lived every other mortal in the story who knew Murphy, not until at least 400 years and a day have passed.

Now that's of course if Harry will remain mortal - I think immortals memories doesn't count in this regard, otherwise damn Murphy is more screwed than any Einherjar soldier ever ;)

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That is one interpretation. The other is that Murphy’s soul is exactly were it should be and this is what’s next for her. She will be raised again every time she dies and feast again. She chose for that when she decided to fight and die as a Viking warrior and maybe Vadderung had negotiated with Uriel about her.

That seems hardly a matter. I mean Einhernjar soldiers and Odin are doomed. Ragnarok coming always in their perspective.
Immortal does not mean eternal.

Not to mention - Valhalla and Odin, are not really this kind of warrior attitude Murphy showed in live. She was stubborn protector, a cop, a guardian. They are berserkers loving war for war itself, chosen for no other moral virtue but combat valor - so I mean there are really really shitty guys in Valhalla - and they live again (remember they are called mortal warriors - even if they are ressurected they are still well humans fundamentally) to train for oncoming Ragnarok. Like Odin sell their services to Marcone. How well do you think Murphy would react to be sold to some cyberpunk fae Marcone in 2277, huh?

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Just like other souls end up in Hades. Not that many anymore but they do. I do not get the impression that hades is a limited stay so why would walhalla be one? Is this Christian exceptionalism?

It sort of is. Pagan gods are beings of multiple level of magnitude beneath Uriel and his brothers.
Most of them were sacked by Creator according to WOJ and forbidden to interfere with both mortal and Nevernever affairs. More are rambling around as immortal rock-stars and wrestlers, Odin choose mortality so he can keep being involved and then he gain it again, because well he was powerful wizard with God's knowledge so he knew well how to do it again, and took a risk, Hades is basically locked in his Underworld and unable to do much.

Another thing is - whether spirits coming to Hades were even real souls or more like spirits.
Those we met in Underworld were more like shades, than whatever Dresden was as a walking soul.


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She would have made a great Knight of the Cross.

Murphy proved very well - she would be shitty Knight of the Cross.
Her INDEPENDENCE SYNDROM stopped her from being effective tool of Divine Providence (at least effective willing tool - as her failures were still used in a way to make Sword of Faith stronger) - and that's what knight is. Maybe not a saint, maybe not a believer, but he puts his fate in hands of providence to be guided, where he's needed. And Murphy rejected that. She rejected playing by God's rules.


Ironically she ended up - probably against her will - as Odin's soldier to be rented to some Marcone 2.0. (or maybe even Marcone 1.0 as he may not count as mortal anymore) in far future :P

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It was a story choice.  If Murphy didn't get anything it was because Jim didn't want her to as a character.  And this is true for every female character in the story. It's a shame really.

Well yes, but also her stance about Swords is absolutely consistent with her character as shown by multiple books.
Otherwise those books can be just whatever bonanza with zero consistence.

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You knew at the outset when they had sex that she was doomed.  I would guess Mab is as well.

TBH I get more "she's going to do vibe" - when Dresden get too moral to seal the deal before. XD

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It could have well been written another way. She could have went to heaven.  Which given her Catholicism would seemed to have been a better choice. Or she could have joined the Librarians in DC. He wanted her dead and out of the way for this arc with Lara.

Considering all her live and especially stance for swords, her Catholicism seems to me as lil more than Irish cultural thing and convinient excuse to avoid unwanted valkyrie's sexual advances.

Also consider this - heaven is permanent. You never come back.
It's afterlife by capital A. and capital FTERLIFE.

But pagan gods and their domains are not eternal in this world - and Valhalla is especially like holding a big green neon sign saying NOT PERMANENT. It's doomed. Odin is doomed. Einhernjaren is doomed.
I mean let's say - what are the chances Big Apocalyptic Triology shall not include Ragnarok. I count them about 0,66%.

Which also means Murphy is in quite good place to fight in BAT as revenant supersoldier.

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But the surviving gods and men will repopulate a beautiful new world. It is not just about destruction, it is also about rebirth.

Well but that does not counts Odin or Einhenjaren - those are goners.
And considering all other Nordic Gods were sacked from their jobs by THE CREATOR according to WOJ, I think well they can help repopulate by breedings scions on Earth, because that's about as far as they can go I guess XD

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The real apocalypse was something people were looking forward to. It says something about how happy they were.

The Christian Apocalypse - yes, but it's term used rather more popculturally in Dresden Files - neither of apocalyptic scenarios here is like Second Coming - more like Outsiders Invasion of reality.


Offline Arjan

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2020, 01:37:53 PM »
Now that's of course if Harry will remain mortal - I think immortals memories doesn't count in this regard, otherwise damn Murphy is more screwed than any Einherjar soldier ever ;)

That seems hardly a matter. I mean Einhernjar soldiers and Odin are doomed. Ragnarok coming always in their perspective.
Immortal does not mean eternal.

Not to mention - Valhalla and Odin, are not really this kind of warrior attitude Murphy showed in live. She was stubborn protector, a cop, a guardian. They are berserkers loving war for war itself, chosen for no other moral virtue but combat valor - so I mean there are really really shitty guys in Valhalla - and they live again (remember they are called mortal warriors - even if they are ressurected they are still well humans fundamentally) to train for oncoming Ragnarok. Like Odin sell their services to Marcone. How well do you think Murphy would react to be sold to some cyberpunk fae Marcone in 2277, huh?

It sort of is. Pagan gods are beings of multiple level of magnitude beneath Uriel and his brothers.
Most of them were sacked by Creator according to WOJ and forbidden to interfere with both mortal and Nevernever affairs. More are rambling around as immortal rock-stars and wrestlers, Odin choose mortality so he can keep being involved and then he gain it again, because well he was powerful wizard with God's knowledge so he knew well how to do it again, and took a risk, Hades is basically locked in his Underworld and unable to do much.

Another thing is - whether spirits coming to Hades were even real souls or more like spirits.
Those we met in Underworld were more like shades, than whatever Dresden was as a walking soul.


Murphy proved very well - she would be shitty Knight of the Cross.
Her INDEPENDENCE SYNDROM stopped her from being effective tool of Divine Providence (at least effective willing tool - as her failures were still used in a way to make Sword of Faith stronger) - and that's what knight is. Maybe not a saint, maybe not a believer, but he puts his fate in hands of providence to be guided, where he's needed. And Murphy rejected that. She rejected playing by God's rules.


Ironically she ended up - probably against her will - as Odin's soldier to be rented to some Marcone 2.0. (or maybe even Marcone 1.0 as he may not count as mortal anymore) in far future :P

Well yes, but also her stance about Swords is absolutely consistent with her character as shown by multiple books.
Otherwise those books can be just whatever bonanza with zero consistence.

TBH I get more "she's going to do vibe" - when Dresden get too moral to seal the deal before. XD

Considering all her live and especially stance for swords, her Catholicism seems to me as lil more than Irish cultural thing and convinient excuse to avoid unwanted valkyrie's sexual advances.

Also consider this - heaven is permanent. You never come back.
It's afterlife by capital A. and capital FTERLIFE.

But pagan gods and their domains are not eternal in this world - and Valhalla is especially like holding a big green neon sign saying NOT PERMANENT. It's doomed. Odin is doomed. Einhernjaren is doomed.
I mean let's say - what are the chances Big Apocalyptic Triology shall not include Ragnarok. I count them about 0,66%.

Which also means Murphy is in quite good place to fight in BAT as revenant supersoldier.

Well but that does not counts Odin or Einhenjaren - those are goners.
And considering all other Nordic Gods were sacked from their jobs by THE CREATOR according to WOJ, I think well they can help repopulate by breedings scions on Earth, because that's about as far as they can go I guess XD

The Christian Apocalypse - yes, but it's term used rather more popculturally in Dresden Files - neither of apocalyptic scenarios here is like Second Coming - more like Outsiders Invasion of reality.
That is actually a point. The apocalypse in the dresdenverse is the outsider apocalypse and if that one succeeds it is the end of this reality. So it won’t happen because our hero will make sure it does not happen this time.

This reality is meantime continue.

And Murphy will play her part in this as well. She wanted to be involved, now she is. Nobody will take that away from her. I think she will be quite happy with her afterlife. She is not the playing harp on a cloud type.

So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.

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Offline Mira

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2020, 01:48:44 PM »
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So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.

I think she still could be nailed in the end...  However while she might like the fighting, I don't remember her as much of a party girl.

Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2020, 02:03:41 PM »
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That is actually a point. The apocalypse in the dresdenverse is the outsider apocalypse and if that one succeeds it is the end of this reality. So it won’t happen because our hero will make sure it does not happen this time.

I mean - why not both?
Apocalypse is random word now for great catastrophe. Apocalypse in Biblical Sense is Revelation - to Saint John of End Days.
But of course Empty Night is not End Days. End Days are Creator judging his creation finally and giving it final fixed shape.
Empty Night is Creator school friends destroying his Creation because creating worlds is lame and nerdy.
Those are two different things.

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This reality is meantime continue.
And Murphy will play her part in this as well. She wanted to be involved, now she is. Nobody will take that away from her. I think she will be quite happy with her afterlife. She is not the playing harp on a cloud type.
So no last judgement in the dresdenverse. Murphy will battle and party forever.

I mean yes and no.
Uriel clearly points out - that beyond Murphy's dad station is something very much FINAL.

Quote from: Ghost Story
"“When you say what comes next, what do you mean, exactly?”
“The part involving words like forever, eternity, and judgment.”"

And Odin while immortal is not eternal. Not even close. Judgement is waiting for him as well I presume.
So of course reality is going to survive overall. Mortal world. At least part of nevernever.
But I'm quite sure Odin and Valhalla are goners - though maybe some Einhernjarns shall survive at least longer in this battle to help.
I'm quite sure Faerie Queen mantles can also be destroyed by the end - maybe some more ancient Titan or Goddess reforged from remains.

And in terms of Murphy's afterlife. I'm not sure. I mean she has issues, she never get to solve really, because damn if her all INDEPENDENT WOMAN facade is not a way to push down own grief and trauma. That's why I hoped we gonna get book with Oracle!Murphy to force her in new position and unravel it a bit, but nope - she run straight back to her former self. But also - because this she can have problem working for Odin.
Now she's stuck in Valhalla for like maybe even half of millenium, and then - remember MONOC securities are Mercenaries. Not really moral ones - Odin works with Marcone - that's not something Murphy would like to do. Murphy was never fighting for fighting sake. Not a warrior per se. More like vigilante (because even as a cop she has bit loose relation with laws and rules), punisher of wrongdoers, vindicator. Not berserker mercenary.

And as Konrad Curze once said "Death is nothing compared to vindication"

So by refusing to be servant of her own God, she was claimed as servant to army of pagan God.
Not even Irish one, dammit. She's gonna be pissed :P

Offline Arjan

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2020, 02:09:16 PM »
At the end Odin with all his flaws is about protecting this world, about protecting humanity. That is where the gods are for and that is what Odin is still doing. I can imagine Murphy going for that.

He and Uriel have discussed Murphy over lunch. It will be all right.
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Offline Wicked Woodpecker of West

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Re: MURPHYS [BG Spoilers]
« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2020, 02:16:19 PM »
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At the end Odin with all his flaws is about protecting this world, about protecting humanity. That is where the gods are for and that is what Odin is still doing. I can imagine Murphy going for that.

Look for all her cop style - Murphy is as CG as Harry, two peas in a pod.
I mean Mab is for defending reality like probably most of all supes, Dresden knows it - and hey guess how well this shit works for them :P

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He and Uriel have discussed Murphy over lunch. It will be all right.

I don't thin Vadderung has discuss anything - this battle was fought under his banner - he has his choosing of slain warriors.
Now whether he'll be happy of this choice - that's another question.