Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!

[Mira]

At the end sure but the bad trigger discipline was mentioned so many times in two books.

That could very well be, however his mind was broken before hand, not to the extent it was when he actually shot Murphy, but it was headed that way.  He had convinced himself at some point that Murphy and Harry were behind everything.  He saw Murphy, he saw Harry, his mind screamed, "danger Will Robinson," he felt he had to stop them.  There was nothing rational in the thought process, so bad trigger discipline united with paranoia, equals death for someone.

[Arjan]

That could very well be, however his mind was broken before hand, not to the extent it was when he actually shot Murphy, but it was headed that way.  He had convinced himself at some point that Murphy and Harry were behind everything.  He saw Murphy, he saw Harry, his mind screamed, "danger Will Robinson," he felt he had to stop them.  There was nothing rational in the thought process, so bad trigger discipline united with paranoia, equals death for someone.

And remember what happened when Bradly accused him of bad trigger discipline. Rudolph asked him whose side he was on.

[The_Sibelis]

The man has totally lost it mentally, training, no matter how good is going to compensate for that. His finger and hand may have muscle memory, but they need the brain to power them.

as someone whose studied martial arts for years,(including under a guy with a degree in pyschoneuralimmunology(? If Im recalling my big words correctly)) let me assure you. There is no such thing as muscle memory. No memory is stored in the muscle.
And let me elaborate on my point, I have fired a gun only a handful of times, the first thing my untrained brain is going to do if a gun misfires when I didn't pull the trigger, or feel the trigger bump, my reaction is going to be just about the same as Rudy's. His reaction is not right and cannot be explained away with lack of discipline or even a generic breakdown of mental capacity, which would have precluded the reaction.

[Arjan]

as someone whose studied martial arts for years,(including under a guy with a degree in pyschoneuralimmunology(? If Im recalling my big words correctly)) let me assure you. There is no such thing as muscle memory. No memory is stored in the muscle.
And let me elaborate on my point, I have fired a gun only a handful of times, the first thing my untrained brain is going to do if a gun misfires when I didn't pull the trigger, or feel the trigger bump, my reaction is going to be just about the same as Rudy's. His reaction is not right and cannot be explained away with lack of discipline or even a generic breakdown of mental capacity, which would have precluded the reaction.

You don’t get it from a few lessons bu I have experienced it when I played the violin. It needs training.

A simple search on the internet will give loads of results, I just give you the first one:

https://www.sierraelement.com/blog/the-importance-of-muscle-memory-in-firearms-training.html

[The_Sibelis]

Let me reiterate, it does not exist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology#:~:text=Psychoneuroimmunology%20(PNI)%2C%20also%20referred,systems%20of%20the%20human%20body.
It's a misnomer, misapplied information to the wrong conclusion, ect.
And all those things are very important in martial arts... And my teacher used to laugh at people who used the term muscle memory, especially other artists.

[Arjan]

Let me reiterate, it does not exist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology#:~:text=Psychoneuroimmunology%20(PNI)%2C%20also%20referred,systems%20of%20the%20human%20body.
It's a misnomer, misapplied information to the wrong conclusion, ect.
And all those things are very important in martial arts... And my teacher used to laugh at people who used the term muscle memory, especially other artists.

This must be a wrong link because the word memory and the word muscle do not appear in the text.

And however you want to call it the effect exists. I had my body ran away with a piece of music without thinking about it. And yes your brain is still involved in some way but that is not the point in this context.

The point is that you can drill some habits into people so they do it without thinking about it.

And it has nothing to do with the immune system.

[The_Sibelis]

This must be a wrong link because the word memory and the word muscle do not appear in the text.

And however you want to call it the effect exists. I had my body ran away with a piece of music without thinking about it. And yes your brain is likely still involved in some way but that is not the point in this context.

And it has nothing to do with the immune system.

reread the first passage,"the study of the interaction between psychological processes and the nervous and immune systems of the human body." on everything it dabbles in and everything it includes."incorporating psychology, neuroscience, immunology, physiology, genetics, pharmacology, molecular biology, psychiatry, behavioral medicine, infectious diseases, endocrinology, and rheumatology." The word muscle memory wouldn't appear, because it does not exist.. go on Facebook, look up Yost Wing Chun, and ask mister Jason Yost what muscle memory really is.

[Arjan]

reread the first passage,"the study of the interaction between psychological processes and the nervous and immune systems of the human body." on everything it dabbles in and everything it includes."incorporating psychology, neuroscience, immunology, physiology, genetics, pharmacology, molecular biology, psychiatry, behavioral medicine, infectious diseases, endocrinology, and rheumatology." The word muscle memory wouldn't appear, because it does not exist.. go on Facebook, look up Yost Wing Chun, and ask mister Jason Yost what muscle memory really is.

It does not litterally exist because the memory is still in the brain but that is not important in this context. What is important is that it is a real effect that is called muscle memory and can be used to train people. That is used to train people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

[TrueMonk]

Maybe just agree that one of you like to use the term while the other one states that if you are being literal about it there is no such thing?

[Arjan]

Maybe just agree that one of you like to use the term while the other one states that if you are being literal about it there is no such thing?

A cuttlefish is not a fish. The creature still exists and is generally called cuttlefish. I have not seen a better term for the concept that is in general use.

And you can eat it. We were not discussing the proper term for the concept otherwise I would have expected an alternative term offered. There was a denial of the existence of the cuttlefish even if loads of people had it on their plate.

[Dina]

I don't think anyone (or most anyone) speaking of muscle memory actually think the muscle has the capacity of having memory. It's just a way of naming an effect, an idiom if you want. But, as others said, the effect exist and it has been quite studied. I remember an episode of House about a man with amnesia. House irritated him (as always) and in the middle of the heat he convinces him to sign a piece of paper. The man did it, because in his angry state he did not remember that he did not remember his name. He did his signature as he has done thousands of times in his life. And House stated that the memory for mechanical actions like that was different than conscious memory. Well, that is what we called muscle memory.

[Mira]

And actually it is neither here nor there, in the sense that Rudy was pointing the gun in Murphy's general direction.  He wasn't standing around with his finger on the trigger.

[Bad Alias]

cause he was being an idiot?

Or because he doesn't know his own hardware.

Because you have to drill these things into people until they do it without thinking otherwise it breaks down under stress. Rudolph was overstretched and breaking down.

Which I would characterize as part and parcel of not knowing his hardware.

I don't think he was poorly trained, nothing but speculation supports that, he was trained.

Both real world police training and Rudy's repeated lack of trigger discipline both suggest that he was poorly trained on firearms.

If you're halfway decently trained on firearms, you're not going to have your finger on the trigger until you've decided you're willing for the gun to go bang.

Jim is probably very familiar with this. He brought it up in Fool Moon when Harry said he'd err on the side of blowing Denton's head off.

[BrainFireBob]

Wow this was a roller coaster of a thread.  Here is how I read the scene:

Once Murphy is shot and it sinks in.  A switch is thrown in Harry.  You can tell by the way he is talking.  They're trying to get him to stop and he's dismissing him with the same tone that someone would use to say "Just let me wash my hands, then we can eat."  That is the emotionless logic of a sociopath who treats murdering Rudolph has a banal task he needs to complete.  The holy lightsaber, which Harry could pass his flesh through previously while feeling just a warm buzzing sensation now sears his flesh as if he is pure evil, which he is that that moment.  The sword then has the same affect on harry as it does on the monsters.  Once Harry snaps out of it, Butters could have pushed the lightsaber through him and it wouldn't have harmed in again.  Harry is going to have another scar on his arm that reminds him not to become a monster.  The sulfur smell was the signal that Harry was seriously in the wrong, I don't think it has anything to do with an outsider influencing Rudolph.  It has everything to do with Harry being evil in that moment and the sword telling him a resounding "No."

Exactly.

The swords exist to allow free will choice. Especially, they exist to neutralize the Denarians to allow their hosts free will.

In this case, Harry's free will is compromised by his Mantle. The sword gives him a shock to allow free willed choice. It's what the KotC are for.

[Dina]

About the matter of brimstone, there is a chance that it is not as significant. I've just finished rereading PT and when Eb is fighting (fake) Harry, Eb hit Harry's shoulders with terrible force. The magic suit took the damage. It says: "There was a flash of light from the spider-silk suit, the scent of something putrid, burning. and instead it (the hit) merely felt like getting smacked...". I don't see any reason for that putrid smell so perhaps is like some spells are smelly when dispelled. But even so, it is weird to write a scene with two KoC and mentioning sulfur.