Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!

[The_Sibelis]

You do when you weren't intending to fire and got caught out by a combo of shitty trigger discipline and panic.

Na, then you get an oh God wtf have I done moment. Something about Rudy's reaction just doesn't jive right. Rudy was being an idiot but he knows his own hardware, it's not mundane death and destruction he's turned a blind eye to. I just can't imagine anyone in his shoes immediately looking towards the gun in such utter surprise. He understands guns kill people, I'd wager most people who squeeze one off my accident are aware of the reflexive twitch when it happens. I'm usually aware when I twitch even if I can't help doing so.
I can't believe Rudolph just automatically assumes the gun is screwed up without reasoning.
That is an interesting theory about Harry starting to call hellfire though..

[Mira]

Na, then you get an oh God wtf have I done moment. Something about Rudy's reaction just doesn't jive right. Rudy was being an idiot but he knows his own hardware, it's not mundane death and destruction he's turned a blind eye to. I just can't imagine anyone in his shoes immediately looking towards the gun in such utter surprise. He understands guns kill people, I'd wager most people who squeeze one off my accident are aware of the reflexive twitch when it happens. I'm usually aware when I twitch even if I can't help doing so.
I can't believe Rudolph just automatically assumes the gun is screwed up without reasoning.
That is an interesting theory about Harry starting to call hellfire though..

Maybe if he was infected he might...  Consider Justine's act, what is to say that that startled look was also an act?

[morriswalters]

Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it.  The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training.  Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then  dies at the hands of a coward, by accident.  This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.

[Arjan]

Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it.  The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training.  Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then  dies at the hands of a coward, by accident.  This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.

And you should be angry. It is exactly what Jim wants you to be 

[Mira]

Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it.  The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training.  Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then  dies at the hands of a coward, by accident.  This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.

I am inclined to agree, however if there is more to it than it appears to be, I think I've come up with something plausible.  However since Rudolph got the gun by accident because Bradley was occupied  trying to save his child and those other kids, it says it was just one of those things.. Then again, how a gun, not aimed could find the carotid artery in Murphy's neck, raises questions... But then again there are a lot of dead people out there in the real world who died from "unloaded" guns, guns not really aimed at anyone, mistaken for a deer, an last but not least, guns handled by paranoid panic stricken fingers..

[Telynn]

Jim signaled this about as loud as you can do it short of grabbing you by the ears and screaming it.  The first time he had a character mention trigger discipline somebody was going to die from an accidental gunshot. It actually fits the character in this case. In his haste to ladder climb he bypassed the training.  Ultimately the guy who sent in IA owns it. As it's written it works fairy well, you get angry because she takes out a giant and then  dies at the hands of a coward, by accident.  This is how Jim has used the character throughout the books.

I thought it was fairly obvious as well.  Maybe he used the term 'trigger discipline' before in the books, but not that I ever really noticed.  And suddenly it is used a lot.  So much that you noticed it.  It almost seemed out of place it was used so much.

[Hagbard Celine]

Wow this was a roller coaster of a thread.  Here is how I read the scene:

Once Murphy is shot and it sinks in.  A switch is thrown in Harry.  You can tell by the way he is talking.  They're trying to get him to stop and he's dismissing him with the same tone that someone would use to say "Just let me wash my hands, then we can eat."  That is the emotionless logic of a sociopath who treats murdering Rudolph has a banal task he needs to complete.  The holy lightsaber, which Harry could pass his flesh through previously while feeling just a warm buzzing sensation now sears his flesh as if he is pure evil, which he is that that moment.  The sword then has the same affect on harry as it does on the monsters.  Once Harry snaps out of it, Butters could have pushed the lightsaber through him and it wouldn't have harmed in again.  Harry is going to have another scar on his arm that reminds him not to become a monster.  The sulfur smell was the signal that Harry was seriously in the wrong, I don't think it has anything to do with an outsider influencing Rudolph.  It has everything to do with Harry being evil in that moment and the sword telling him a resounding "No."

[Arjan]

Wow this was a roller coaster of a thread.  Here is how I read the scene:

Once Murphy is shot and it sinks in.  A switch is thrown in Harry.  You can tell by the way he is talking.  They're trying to get him to stop and he's dismissing him with the same tone that someone would use to say "Just let me wash my hands, then we can eat."  That is the emotionless logic of a sociopath who treats murdering Rudolph has a banal task he needs to complete.  The holy lightsaber, which Harry could pass his flesh through previously while feeling just a warm buzzing sensation now sears his flesh as if he is pure evil, which he is that that moment.  The sword then has the same affect on harry as it does on the monsters.  Once Harry snaps out of it, Butters could have pushed the lightsaber through him and it wouldn't have harmed in again.  Harry is going to have another scar on his arm that reminds him not to become a monster.  The sulfur smell was the signal that Harry was seriously in the wrong, I don't think it has anything to do with an outsider influencing Rudolph.  It has everything to do with Harry being evil in that moment and the sword telling him a resounding "No."

That is a very reasonable explanation of what happened but we do not do reasonable here. We reject the reasonable explanation and go straight to the conspiracy theories.

[Dina]

LOL, Arjan!

It's been a while since I do a full rereading of the series, does Harry's hellfire smell like brimstone/sulfur  before?

The_Sibelis, I agree that the "Wtf?" was a little confusing. So I still think TWG was involved. That could have caused Rudolph to shoot without actually realizing he was doing it. That or something possessed him for a moment.

And of course the first time trigger discipline was mentioned we knew somebody was going to be shot by accident, that does not mean that "the accident" were not caused for something supernatural.

[Avernite]

That is a very reasonable explanation of what happened but we do not do reasonable here. We reject the reasonable explanation and go straight to the conspiracy theories.

Well, I mean, you get the reasonable explanation when you read it. No need for a forum

To me the Murphy shot just doesn't work thematically if Rudolph was not himself. The book was half 'humans aren't much' and half 'but they CAN be'. They can be great, but without Rudolph, they're not all that terrible; we have a few bits and pieces as Harry gathers up his banner, but mostly the humans are darn heroic (even the Denarian).

Rudolph, by one shot, balanced that scale. If it wasn't Rudolph but Nemesis or somesuch in the driver's seat, well... not balanced.

[Dina]

I agree, and that is an interesting take but...I still think too many things were involved in the shooting, it  reminded me to the scene that ended with Butters taking the Blade, when Harry was trying to do something but his aim was not too good.

I mean, if it were a pure accident, I don't think the necessity of JB to write some things in the scene. Rudolph could have his weapon the whole time and only took it in his hand in the last moments, when he saw Murph killing the Jotun. And before that, he could have been quite groggy but walking on his feet, not needing to be carried by Bradley (which led to the moment of Harry and Bradley discussing what to do with him).

[Arjan]

There is no doubt that killing or not killing Rudolph was one of those important choices that decides who Harry is going to be and as such is typically something the fallen would like to influence just like the knights did. Lash was influencing Harry to become more violent for a reason.

[Dina]

Oh yes, but I don't think how a Denarian could have done it.

[Arjan]

Oh yes, but I don't think how a Denarian could have done it.

Unless Lasciel is meddling again.

[Dina]

Lasciel is a Denarian, so it is included in what I just said. How?