Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!

[morriswalters]

I can see someone shattered by a loved one dying in front of their eyes.  But Harry is in a berserker rage all out of proportion to what is happening on the page.  It isn't hard to see him killing Rudolph but attacking the Knights is an altogether different thing.  The smell of Brimstone when Harry walks into the blade suggests something else at work given these passages.

“People can be evil,” Michael said. “They can be good. They can choose. That’s . . . part of what makes us people.” He shook his head. “I came to recognize the presence of evil over the years. True darkness is very different than mere rage or terror or greed, or desire for vengeance. I’ve met only a handful of mortals who were truly evil. Nicodemus and his like.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

I nodded. “Angels are creatures of absolutes. You’d have to be pretty darned absolute to qualify as evil—or good—by their standards. It’s why they like Michael so much.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

“Your Sword isn’t going to be of any use against mortals,” I said quietly. “It’s better than ever at handling monsters, but if one of them hires a bruiser from the outfit, that guy is going to bounce you off the ceiling.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 179). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[TrueMonk]

It is definately very interesting.

It could be that if he lets the winter mantle all in then he qualifies as "true darkness". But it does not seem entirely likely to me.

[Mira]

I can see someone shattered by a loved one dying in front of their eyes.  But Harry is in a berserker rage all out of proportion to what is happening on the page.  It isn't hard to see him killing Rudolph but attacking the Knights is an altogether different thing.  The smell of Brimstone when Harry walks into the blade suggests something else at work given these passages.

What I find interesting, is the way the paragraph is written just when the burn happens you have ask; is Harry smelling sulfur and brimstone, or is he imagining it because the burn is a physical reminder that what he was about to do is wrong?

page 212

The stench of my own flesh filled my nose, somehow laced with the scent of sulfur and brimstone.

The interesting word is somehow, that implies doubt, is it or isn't it?  Is the evil scent truly coming from Harry, or is he imagining it?  When one gets a sudden severe burn, the brain usually isn't about sorting out what the nose is smelling, especially when it is your own flesh charring.

It goes back to what Michael said about the difference between truly evil men, and those who do evil out of anger etc.  Harry had very good reasons for acting the way he did in the wake of Murphy's murder, but that doesn't make his actions right, and could send him down a very dark road.  I think this is what the Sword was warning him about, that is why he thought he could smell the sulfur and the brimstone, "this act will lead to you becoming a monster."  It stopped Harry in his tracts, he doesn't want to become that man, he went down that road with Lasciel and rejected it. If it wanted to, the Sword easily could have cut off his arm, it didn't, but it did send a very pointed warning.

[morriswalters]

It says what it says. And if you think that is a rational outcome of loss then we have very different views on the issue.  And this is the second time in the series that it has happened.

[Mira]

It says what it says. And if you think that is a rational outcome of loss then we have very different views on the issue.  And this is the second time in the series that it has happened.

No one said it was rational, it was a totally emotional response.  Butters and Sanya know that, the Sword knows that, that is why the warning burn and it didn't take his fricking arm off..  As Michael would say,  "it wasn't a response of true darkness."  It is hard to say how one will act upon seeing a loved one dying violently and needlessly at the hands of someone.  What the head and heart say and trigger might be two opposing things..  The head may say, "hold back, this isn't right."  But the heart might be screaming, "kill the bastard.."  Both may feel they are very good reasons..

By the first, if you mean when Harry did over kill on the ghouls who murdered and half ate those kids.  It also was an emotional response. he also had a fallen angel's shadow in his head at the time, and no Holy Knights to try and stop him.  Now Harry has rationalized that response, but he is also ashamed of his response just as he is about going after Rudolph.  Ashamed means remorse, which means hopefully trying to learn something from the experience. 

[morriswalters]

It doesn't fit with my understanding of human behavior.  YMMV.  In Blood Rites when Harry learns that Raith killed his mother, Eb has to hurt his burned hand to stop his blind rage. The rage in BG is almost a note for note recreation of the event in Blood Rites.

Harry," Ebenezar snapped. "Harry, let go. You can't handle that kind of power. You'll kill yourself if you try."

I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.

And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.

I assumed on first read that it was the mantle but it doesn't read like the other instances.

[Mira]

It doesn't fit with my understanding of human behavior.  YMMV.  In Blood Rites when Harry learns that Raith killed his mother, Eb has to hurt his burned hand to stop his blind rage. The rage in BG is almost a note for note recreation of the event in Blood Rites.I assumed on first read that it was the mantle but it doesn't read like the other instances.

It is call a HUMAN REACTION!!   Michael, in the Warrior was on tract to beat Father Douglas to death with a baseball bat for kidnapping his daughter.  He went berserk, yes, saintly Michael went nuts when he found out and proceeded to do serious harm to the man who did it.  Harry stopped him and when he came back to his senses Michael thanked him for stopping him.  This is what happened in Battle Ground, Harry just witnessed the woman he loved get blown away, not in an honorable fight with the enemy, but because some crazed idiot with a gun couldn't contain himself.  Harry lost it, when wizard lose it,it can be very very bad, it finally took a nice burn from the Sword of Faith to bring him back to his senses, he was deeply ashamed, both Butters and Sanya understood what had happened and forgave him.  Heck how would you react if you found out your mother was murdered?  And it was someone you actually knew?  Don't ya think you might get just a bit emotional about it? 

That is what scared Harry so about Eb, when Eb killed his double.  As I said, it is very bad for everyone when wizards lose it... The Blackstaff is never supposed to lose it, ever... Eb did.

[morriswalters]

You seem to believe that anything Harry does is okay.  And I'm okay with it being that way for you. But not so for me.

As a character I understand the rage, but it's the underlying calculation that would scare any reasonable person. I'm trying to understand why Jim wrote it this way, not arguing that Harry should eat electrons on death row.

[Arjan]

You seem to believe that anything Harry does is okay.  And I'm okay with it being that way for you. But not so for me.

As a character I understand the rage, but it's the underlying calculation that would scare any reasonable person. I'm trying to understand why Jim wrote it this way, not arguing that Harry should eat electrons on death row.

Because he wants Harry to have flaws people can identify with. Of course an emotional person who looses control is terrifying. 

[BrainFireBob]

Harry is exhausted, in extreme emotional distress, and hurting badly.

His free will is compromised by the Winter Mantle at that point.

His actions and thought processes are the exact "embrace Winter" that Mab discusses.

The angel intervened just the right amount to allow Harry to make a choice about what he did to Rudolph in spite of supernatural pressure to go full-on vengeance mode.

That cold calculation is Winter.

[The_Sibelis]

Negative, that cold calculation is the result of learning to fight off the winter mantle.. to be more.. Mab like, in the end.

[BrainFireBob]

They are very explicit: Embracing the mantle eliminates emotional pain. Fighting the mantle allows you to feel what you are doing.

Compare Harry about to kill Rudolph with when he unleashes the mantle fighting Maeve. His assessment of Fix shows the exact same cold rationality.

[The_Sibelis]

No... Harry is explicit, embracing the mantle does NOTHING for the emotional pain. He specifically mentions this after he loses Murphy.

[BrainFireBob]

HIS pain, but his empathy is set to zero.

[Mira]

You seem to believe that anything Harry does is okay.  And I'm okay with it being that way for you. But not so for me.

As a character I understand the rage, but it's the underlying calculation that would scare any reasonable person. I'm trying to understand why Jim wrote it this way, not arguing that Harry should eat electrons on death row.

No, I don't, and if Harry had killed Rudolph it wouldn't have been okay, all I am saying is his reaction was understandable, and actually quite normal.  I am not sure what you mean by calculation.

Because he wants Harry to have flaws people can identify with. Of course an emotional person who looses control is terrifying. 

Yes, and pushed under the right conditions anyone can lose it.. Michael in The Warrior, the kidnapping and submitting his child to that kind of terror was a bridge too far.. He lost it and would have brutally, coldly, and messily beaten Father Douglas to death if Harry hadn't stopped him.  Michael isn't an evil man, on the contrary he is rather a saintly one, but he is capable of being quite brutal if pushed too far.

What makes it difficult is it is hard to argue with the love and the paternal instincts that triggered the violent reaction in Michael, when his child was harmed.  Something would be wrong if he didn't feel them, yet at the same time it is wrong to act on what his impulse to harm the man who harmed his child.  I guess that is where the saying comes from,"When emotions run high, it is hoped that cooler heads prevail."  Michael got lucky, Harry got lucky, both had friends with cool heads who stopped something they'd regret later.

HIS pain, but his empathy is set to zero.

I think you are very wrong there, Harry feels a great deal of empathy.  However in the moment that Rudolph killed Murphy, isn't exactly the time where one would feel for Rudolph.. That might come later... Another problem with the story, nothing about why suddenly Rudolph was so after Murphy and Harry.  Bradley was even at a loss..