Who really killed ... BG spoilers!!!!

[The_Sibelis]

It does not litterally exist because the memory is still in the brain but that is not important in this context. What is important is that it is a real effect that is called muscle memory and can be used to train people. That is used to train people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

if it's not in the muscles, then it's inaccurate. Like the four humors don't literally exist but the idea was successfully used to treat ailments for years. It's also entirely wrong, based on limited understanding and promotes a high degree of misunderstanding in its idea and verbage.

Both real world police training and Rudy's repeated lack of trigger discipline both suggest that he was poorly trained on firearms.

If you're halfway decently trained on firearms, you're not going to have your finger on the trigger until you've decided you're willing for the gun to go bang.

but despite my own limited training with guns I know this, and I mean I know it like a principle I've always adhered to any time I've held a gun. This is why I don't think it was merely lack of training. General breaking down of the psyche and ones beliefs and principles might have such an effect though, as the mind tries to realign itself under a new banner. Someone convinced him Harry and Murphy were monsters.. perhaps his mind was thrown into chaos and was trying to wrap itself around the new status quo?
 I still remember a time when Rudy threatened Dresden if anything happened to Murphy... Him going on to point a gun in her face ready to blow her away is definitely a mental dissonance. Something happened to change his mind, if not an actual psychic attack then the slow eroding of his mind from more mundane 'mind expansion'.

[Arjan]

if it's not in the muscles, then it's inaccurate. Like the four humors don't literally exist but the idea was successfully used to treat ailments for years. It's also entirely wrong, based on limited understanding and promotes a high degree of misunderstanding in its idea and verbage.

Human language does not always work that way. The meaning and understanding of words can change and we can use the word even if we know that the cuttlefish is not really a fish. It is still there. And we still use the word even when we know it is not a fish. We can use the proper Latin name for it if you want but nobody does and nobody recognizes it except for a few scientists that study the animal.

The generally accepted term for the thing is muscle memory, maybe not memory of the muscles but memory for the muscles or about what the muscles should do but that is still the term and until somebody comes with a better term it stays.

And there is a clear difference with the four humors. The four humors do not describe something that happens and needs an explanation, they are an explanation for something that does not happen. They are a unicorn, not a cuttlefish.

So get a new word for cuttlefish if you want but until you do I have to assume you think the animal does not exist which is plainly absurd.

but despite my own limited training with guns I know this, and I mean I know it like a principle I've always adhered to any time I've held a gun. This is why I don't think it was merely lack of training. General breaking down of the psyche and ones beliefs and principles might have such an effect though, as the mind tries to realign itself under a new banner. Someone convinced him Harry and Murphy were monsters.. perhaps his mind was thrown into chaos and was trying to wrap itself around the new status quo?
 I still remember a time when Rudy threatened Dresden if anything happened to Murphy... Him going on to point a gun in her face ready to blow her away is definitely a mental dissonance. Something happened to change his mind, if not an actual psychic attack then the slow eroding of his mind from more mundane 'mind expansion'.

You know it but when you move you have to think about it. That is not enough for a properly trained person.

It is like me playing the piano. I know what key is what note and I can read notes from a score but that does not mean I can play the piano. I do not know how to do it properly. I have to think where to put my finger, I can not just hear the note in my head and get the right key immediately and so on.

[The_Sibelis]

And Rudolph hit b flat and it came out A minor instead.
Operant conditioning, there, a better word already exist. Something to describe motor learning, also a more accurate term.
https://www.popsci.com/what-is-muscle-memory/
And nobody who believed in the four humors would agree, however you sound just like me there arguing muscle memory isn't a real thing. Muscle memory is an explanation of something that does not happen.

[Arjan]

And Rudolph hit b flat and it came out A minor instead.
Operant conditioning, there, a better word already exist. Something to describe motor learning, also a more accurate term.
https://www.popsci.com/what-is-muscle-memory/
And nobody who believed in the four humors would agree,

And nobody who believed in unicorns either. But that is not the point.

however you sound just like me there arguing muscle memory isn't a real thing. Muscle memory is an explanation of something that does not happen.

It is not an explanation, it is a term, a word. Language is that way. It does not always work as clean as you would like.

I had similar discussions with colleagues. Human language does not work like a programming language. This is the universally used term.

https://www.greatbritishchefs.com/how-to-cook/how-to-cook-cuttlefish

Note that the tentacles of the cuttlefish are called wings. No fish has tentacles and you can’t use tentacles for flying. They still exist.

[The_Sibelis]

And nobody who believed in unicorns either. But that is not the point.

when something like 90% of the fossil record is incomplete and things happen like the dodo bird where people didn't believe it existed until it was actually proven, could you in fact prove unicorns don't and never have exist? I fail to see your point.
Muscle memory IS used as an explanation. It's directly used as an explanation in fact... Language is a vessel for an idea to convey an explanation of an idea into solid terms others can understand.. and I think your misunderstanding why they're called wings... "Once launched by this jet propulsion, these squid spread out both their fins and their tentacles to form wings." Because its a verb too, and it's used to define things that complete such verbage. I don't know why your linking how to cook cuttlefish.. wrong link?

[Arjan]

To show you there is a creature generally called a fish but is not. Muscle memory is just like that. Nobody who uses the term and is seriously interested in it thinks it is literally in the muscles. It is just called that way.

It is a far too strict way of defining language. You will find a lot of wrong words

And the wings are called wings because they make you think of bird wings originally. It is association. Just like muscle memory.

[Mira]

but despite my own limited training with guns I know this, and I mean I know it like a principle I've always adhered to any time I've held a gun. This is why I don't think it was merely lack of training. General breaking down of the psyche and ones beliefs and principles might have such an effect though, as the mind tries to realign itself under a new banner. Someone convinced him Harry and Murphy were monsters.. perhaps his mind was thrown into chaos and was trying to wrap itself around the new status quo?
 I still remember a time when Rudy threatened Dresden if anything happened to Murphy... Him going on to point a gun in her face ready to blow her away is definitely a mental dissonance. Something happened to change his mind, if not an actual psychic attack then the slow eroding of his mind from more mundane 'mind expansion'.

Which screams that Rudolph is infested like Justine is.

[The_Sibelis]

To show you there is a creature generally called a fish but is not.

so basically your defense here is because other people use the wrong words we should continue to use the wrong words? " observation. Animals with inaccurate names are everywhere in the animal kingdom, the starfish and the jellyfish are also not fish. A killer whale is actually not a whale at all but related to the dolphin, and a koala bear is not at all a bear. The horny toad"
Remember how words are just vessels for ideas? Well these words conveyed the original idea and are inherently wrong. They are a name proper sure, but so this to an idea and your going to do nothing productive unless it's your intention to spread misinformation. If I said I had read a great paper on spaghetti physics it would accurately explain what I was looking at and falsely identity what I'm talking about.

Muscle memory is just like that. Nobody who uses the term and is seriously interested in it thinks it is literally in the muscles. It is just called that way.

nobody seriously interested in spaghetti mechanics call them that but casually claiming there exists anything of the sort is false.

It is a far too strict way of defining language. You will find a lot of wrong words

I'm having trouble with my math just now... What do two wrongs equal again..?🤔

And the wings are called wings because they make you think of bird wings originally. It is association. Just like muscle memory.

negative, they are called wings because they correctly identity how they are used in a concept. Muscle memory does not correctly identity anything. Muscle tendon changing is not the same as creating the synapse for the action though the two are often trained in a similar fashion.
But I digress, I'm just winging it here.. 😉

[Arjan]

so basically your defense here is because other people use the wrong words we should continue to use the wrong words? " observation. Animals with inaccurate names are everywhere in the animal kingdom, the starfish and the jellyfish are also not fish. A killer whale is actually not a whale at all but related to the dolphin, and a koala bear is not at all a bear. The horny toad"
Remember how words are just vessels for ideas? Well these words conveyed the original idea and are inherently wrong. They are a name proper sure, but so this to an idea and your going to do nothing productive unless it's your intention to spread misinformation. If I said I had read a great paper on spaghetti physics it would accurately explain what I was looking at and falsely identity what I'm talking about. nobody seriously interested in spaghetti mechanics call them that but casually claiming there exists anything of the sort is false.
 I'm having trouble with my math just now... What do two wrongs equal again..?🤔 negative, they are called wings because they correctly identity how they are used in a concept. Muscle memory does not correctly identity anything. Muscle tendon changing is not the same as creating the synapse for the action though the two are often trained in a similar fashion.
But I digress, I'm just winging it here.. 😉

Because language and words are a convention. If a word is generally used for a concept then it is the right word unless you want to change the language. It can be done, usually by powerful pressure groups who want to change society, but you need a lot of pull for that and unless you succeed nobody will understand you.

[BrainFireBob]

so basically your defense here is because other people use the wrong words we should continue to use the wrong words? " observation. Animals with inaccurate names are everywhere in the animal kingdom, the starfish and the jellyfish are also not fish. A killer whale is actually not a whale at all but related to the dolphin, and a koala bear is not at all a bear. The horny toad"
Remember how words are just vessels for ideas? Well these words conveyed the original idea and are inherently wrong. They are a name proper sure, but so this to an idea and your going to do nothing productive unless it's your intention to spread misinformation. If I said I had read a great paper on spaghetti physics it would accurately explain what I was looking at and falsely identity what I'm talking about. nobody seriously interested in spaghetti mechanics call them that but casually claiming there exists anything of the sort is false.
 I'm having trouble with my math just now... What do two wrongs equal again..?🤔 negative, they are called wings because they correctly identity how they are used in a concept. Muscle memory does not correctly identity anything. Muscle tendon changing is not the same as creating the synapse for the action though the two are often trained in a similar fashion.
But I digress, I'm just winging it here.. 😉

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle memory

Stop trying to change the definition of term "muscle memory" to "memory in muscles," please.

It's incorrect, and poor parsing of language. Inverting muscle memory can mean your interpretation, memory belonging to muscles, or memory of muscles- remembering the muscle sequence without need to think through the actions. The latter pretty clearly is the etymology.

[Mira]

   Muscle memory or not really doesn't matter..  Rudolph knows he has poor trigger discipline, doesn't matter what his finger remembered, it is what he was thinking when he was yelling, scared, and pointing the gun at Murphy..

[The_Sibelis]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle memory

Stop trying to change the definition of term "muscle memory" to "memory in muscles," please.

It's incorrect, and poor parsing of language. Inverting muscle memory can mean your interpretation, memory belonging to muscles, or memory of muscles- remembering the muscle sequence without need to think through the actions. The latter pretty clearly is the etymology.

I'm not changing anything, and linking to a definition of muscles REALLY isn't changing anything
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory#:~:text=Muscle%20memory%20is%20a%20form,used%20synonymously%20with%20motor%20learning.
Same thing I quoted earlier. Muscle memory is a colloquial term, it's false on its face value. It's called motor learning. Muscle memory was invented the same way someone say what's up dog? It isn't proper English, period. It's non sensical and promotes a misunderstanding in anyone who hears it. Thank you very much for coming to my TED talk. But nobody, and I repeat NOBODY is going to convince me the way muscle memory is used is correct. It isn't. Especially in the context used here for why Rudolph isn't acting smoothly or with proper trigger safety, that's specifically not muscle memory, not even by some vague definition.

[The_Sibelis]

Because language and words are a convention. If a word is generally used for a concept then it is the right word unless you want to change the language. It can be done, usually by powerful pressure groups who want to change society, but you need a lot of pull for that and unless you succeed nobody will understand you.

that's cool dog, I'ma split before things get too hot in here and I wig out. But it's pretty bad I can argue this all day. Spaghetti mechanics say there's always a version of me continuing this argument. That me, I'm that noodle.

[Dina]

   Muscle memory or not really doesn't matter..  Rudolph knows he has poor trigger discipline, doesn't matter what his finger remembered, it is what he was thinking when he was yelling, scared, and pointing the gun at Murphy..

I think you are right, Mira.

The_Sibelis, as Arjan said, words and language are conventions. And we understand what we mean by "muscle memory", so the convention works and communication happens. That is the important thing. Nobody believes the muscle have actual memory, it's an expression, and it works. No one is trying to convince you that "the way muscle memory is used is correct", only that it works and it is the best way, in the sense that most people will understand it. We are not even saying it's the only way to say it. And in this thread, we all understand the idea. Can we focus on Rudolph now? I think you are saying the same than Mira (and I) about it.

Also, those who knew me know that I don't usually do this (because stones and glass houses) but this time I think I am justified. If you are so concerned with "proper English" perhaps you shouldn't say "I think your misunderstanding why they're called wings" and "your going to". 

[The_Sibelis]

Then define for me muscle memory in your own words Dina, not something you go look upm explain it to me. Because even by the standards of the word nothing rudy was doing was muscle memory besides pointing the gun steady, which he did apparently do with his aim. His actions, his panic, his lack of trigger discipline, none of that is under this term muscle memory. He didn't train for that situation. Operant conditioning would apply, because that'd be taking action under a prescribed circumstances, which would draw on 'muscle memory' as it were. So he lacks field discipline from experience which is strictly a mental preparation, not a motor function.
And no I don't really care to correct your from you're. I didn't have multiple classes in this decade explaining to me the difference between them like I have muscle memory.