Whose the backup plan for...? - Battle Ground Spoiler

[Snark Knight]

If Listen is still alive, which seems doubtful after Harry buried him under a wall of dirt, he might be a candidate, but I'm just not feeling it.

Listen is a cockroach. Unless the body is seen on page, assume he's going to continue causing trouble.

I doubt he'd be amenable to switching to team Mab, though.

[KurtinStGeorge]

All important, but one has to ask the question, what in the hell is a starborn?  We know supposedly that one of Harry's talents if you could call it that is he has power over Outsiders.  Is that true of all starborn? Or is Harry unique? Rashid may fit, he fights Outsiders at the Outer Gates, and he may be old enough to be born 666 years ago, but at the same time being born in the right year doesn't a starborn make.. There are other factors that go into it if Lash is to be believed.  What of Listen and Drakul?  Do they have power over Outsiders as well?  Or were they formed for something else?

That, as they say, is the $64,000 question.  My guess is that a starborn can do more than just dominate Outsiders.  Listen said something about an endgame to Ethniu, with the word endgame being cut off.  We don’t know if the endgame is the final battle with the Outsiders / Nemesis or if the endgame comes after that.

Marva was the first character to mention The Stars and Stones as an event rather than to use it as a curse.  We don’t know what that is.  Is it the endgame, a precursor event to the endgame or a completely separate event that is only related to the endgame in proximity, but not directly connected to it?

I would guess that the names of the final three novels give us a small clue to how events will proceed.  I remember Stars and Stones is the name of one novel and Empty Night is the name of another.  I can’t remember the title of the third novel or what order they are in.  I can guess Stars and Stones will involve the Black Court and Drakul and Empty Night will be Nemesis, but beyond that I have no clue.

One more thing.  The conversation between Listen and Ethniu has made me believe that Ethniu is the key to Listen being starborn.  She seemed to be his sponsor rather than Korb.  I think a major supernatural player like one of the Queens, a Titan, old god or an Angel or Fallen Angel does something to a person born at the right time that takes them to next level. 

Harry had this starborn ability before he became the Winter Knight; according to Lash, but he already had had contact with Mab prior to becoming her Knight.  Getting that last ingredient might be something unnoticeable by a mortal or it might be something like Mab sticking a letter opener in Harry’s hand or stabbing Harry may have distracted him from feeling whatever tingling sensation happens when someone becomes a fully activated starborn individual. 

Now that I think about it, Harry defeated HWWB when he was 16.  So Mab couldn’t have anything to do with Harry being starborn.  Lea visiting Harry in the orphanage.  That is a huge stretch.  So, maybe Harry’s mother did something before Harry was born for his abilities to be fully activated when his magic came in.  That makes sense, but it doesn’t explain who other starborn characters were activated.

[Mira]

Now that I think about it, Harry defeated HWWB when he was 16.  So Mab couldn’t have anything to do with Harry being starborn.  Lea visiting Harry in the orphanage.  That is a huge stretch.  So, maybe Harry’s mother did something before Harry was born for his abilities to be fully activated when his magic came in.  That makes sense, but it doesn’t explain who other starborn characters were activated.

Or does a starborn need to be activated at all?  When 16 year old Harry defeated HWWB he was a terrified kid just trying to survive, he didn't even have a clue of what he was fighting.  Until Lash told him, he had no clue that the only reason why he was able to survive his encounter with HWWB was because he was a starborn.  Maybe this is one of the things that sets Harry apart from the other starborns we've come across, he had no clue that he was, he just did.  By that I mean if someone knows they have all these powers from the time of birth they may form a type of megalomania.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Mira, you could be right, but I just thought of another, more frightening possibility.  I’ll have to reread the scene in Ghost Story featuring HWWB vs. Harry, but didn’t HWWB touch, cut or simply poke Harry in the back?  This occurred before Harry ran outside.  That could have been when Harry’s starborn abilities were activated.

Way back in Storm Front Harry said he carried a magical marker or stain from HWWB, from their first meeting.  If the Walker thought or planned on making Harry its agent it might have purposely activated Harry’s abilities. 

If anyone from the White Council looked at Harry with their Sight; and recognized what they saw, it might be another reason they feared Harry.  This also reminds me that Morgan decided not to use his wizards sight to look at either Mac or Harry when he was scanning Mac’s place for possible spies hiding under a veil in Dead Beat

The stain left by HWWB might be very disturbing for a wizard to look upon and if Morgan had ever used his Sight on Harry before, this would explain why he wouldn’t want to do so again.   

[Snark Knight]

The stain left by HWWB might be very disturbing for a wizard to look upon and if Morgan had ever used his Sight on Harry before, this would explain why he wouldn’t want to do so again.

The residue of the walker certainly seemed to make an impression when the ThreeEye addict looked at him all the way back in SF.

I've also wondered for quite a while about a connection between wizards looking at each other with the sight and a soulgaze shared between wizards and mortals.  Seeing the walker's residue would contribute to the running away screaming or psychotic breaks from some of the mortals who have looked Harry in the eye.  Sure, he's powerful and somewhat prone to a temper, but agent Denton thought he saw actual Hell in Harry all the way back in the second book, when he hadn't really done anything all that disturbing other than (probably) kill Justin in a fair fight.  But if Denton got a conduit to looking at the Outside?  That would do it.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Good point about the three-eye addict.  What I find striking about that encounter, is the three-eye addict; who would have been a total newbie to the world of magic compared to a wizard, recognized the name of the Walker, as if it was written in bold letters on Harry. 

That strongly suggests that Warden Morgan or anyone from the White Council who used their wizard sight on Harry would also recognize it.  Not all wizards would know about Nemesis, but Morgan and most of the Senior Council would.

Now I really want to see a flashback scene to when the White Council first caught up with Harry to get an idea of what they experienced and how they perceived Harry.  I imagine it was Morgan who apprehended Harry, but we could be surprised and find out Morgan wasn't the only one there.

P.S. I also like the idea of the soulgaze revealing that Harry has been touched by darkness that comes from the Outside.  It makes the phrase "Empty Night" carry more meaning.     

[Mira]

Now I really want to see a flashback scene to when the White Council first caught up with Harry to get an idea of what they experienced and how they perceived Harry.  I imagine it was Morgan who apprehended Harry, but we could be surprised and find out Morgan wasn't the only one there.

P.S. I also like the idea of the soulgaze revealing that Harry has been touched by darkness that comes from the Outside.  It makes the phrase "Empty Night" carry more meaning. 

I believe it was in Blood Rites when Eb mentions that he did do a soul gaze on sixteen year old Harry.  What he says he saw was lots of anger and incredible talent.. I think if he saw darkness of the kind an Outsider would bring, or evil, Eb would have said so. Also if you will remember Eb was under orders to kill Harry if he thought he was slipping into warlockhood or what ever evil they were looking for.  Yeah, I am aware that Eb is Harry's grandfather, but I do believe he would have killed him if necessary, just like you'd put down a mad dog no matter how beloved...

[Snark Knight]

3.  Drakul (probably on team evil - possibly a former human starborn who sucked in an outsider and now cohabitates with it mentally, immune to its control but warped by it anyways?)

That would be a real stretch of the WOJ that Drakul is "something inhuman that got trapped in human form".  The WOJ frames the inhuman part as the part that makes Drakul what he is, he's more than just a warped human.

[Mira]

That would be a real stretch of the WOJ that Drakul is "something inhuman that got trapped in human form".  The WOJ frames the inhuman part as the part that makes Drakul what he is, he's more than just a warped human.

 He is, but this confuses the issue doesn't it?    Is there a WOJ saying that one doesn't have to be human to be star born? Or did the fact that Drakul was a human star born make his worse as a vampire?  Same goes for Listen, supposedly before he became a Fomor he was a human star born.

[KurtinStGeorge]

He is, but this confuses the issue doesn't it?    Is there a WOJ saying that one doesn't have to be human to be star born? Or did the fact that Drakul was a human star born make his worse as a vampire?  Same goes for Listen, supposedly before he became a Fomor he was a human star born.

I agree, it does seem odd, with this caveat.  Ebenezar said that Kinkaid had worked for Drakul for centuries, so that means that Drakul is really old, but so is Mab and she was once mortal.  So, Drakul might have also have once been a mortal.

We can take a guess that the Blackcourt was the creation of the Outsiders.  We only have Harry's intuition to go on here, that there is a relationship between these two groups, but I think it makes sense.

In this scenario we might see the Outsiders; perhaps one of the Walkers, did something to a mortal Drakul to make him change into "the creature" as Ebenezar describes him.  It would be an effective way to remove a starborn individual from being a potential threat into one that serves the Outsiders own purpose, even if only indirectly.

[Snark Knight]

What I find striking about that encounter, is the three-eye addict; who would have been a total newbie to the world of magic compared to a wizard, recognized the name of the Walker, as if it was written in bold letters on Harry.

A newbie, yes ... but the drug was a project of some of the outsider affiliates.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sells and at least some of his accomplices had also been recruiting a lot of their customers into becoming outsider cultists, and teaching them enough of a smidgeon about the outsiders to become dangerous.  The whole project starts to make a lot more strategic sense for Nemesis if you consider turning on the sight in otherwise negligibly magical humans as step one of mass producing summoners. (If so, JB is *really* owed some big props for burying a clue that deep, that early)

All of which is to say, sure, the addict saw something and knew what it meant ... but he might have been more educated about that narrow slice of the supernatural than one would think at first.

[Mira]

In this scenario we might see the Outsiders; perhaps one of the Walkers, did something to a mortal Drakul to make him change into "the creature" as Ebenezar describes him.  It would be an effective way to remove a starborn individual from being a potential threat into one that serves the Outsiders own purpose, even if only indirectly.
 

It would, but again we do not have enough information about star born.  Lash said, a star born, "has the potential to wield power over Outsiders.  Interesting quote because when the word potential is used, it hedges all bets.  In other words, the power and talent are there if everything goes right.  We can say that Simone Biles was born with the coordination, strength, and size to have the potential to become the greatest female gymnast the world has seen up to this point.  However, injury, choices, and a dozen other things can change that, so she never reaches that potential. 

I think the Outsiders know a lot about star born, and as you point out, know how to twist it to their advantage.  I also think timing is everything, that's why HWWB went after Harry when he was still a sixteen year old innocent as far as knowing anything about this. 

A newbie, yes ... but the drug was a project of some of the outsider affiliates.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sells and at least some of his accomplices had also been recruiting a lot of their customers into becoming outsider cultists, and teaching them enough of a smidgeon about the outsiders to become dangerous.  The whole project starts to make a lot more strategic sense for Nemesis if you consider turning on the sight in otherwise negligibly magical humans as step one of mass producing summoners. (If so, JB is *really* owed some big props for burying a clue that deep, that early)

All of which is to say, sure, the addict saw something and knew what it meant ... but he might have been more educated about that narrow slice of the supernatural than one would think at first.

I think you may be on to something here, that addict may have been fascinated with the supernatural and became sucked into a cult, told a lot about Outsiders or maybe even meeting them through summons.. Then given the drug so they could see what normal mortals can't see, Outsiders.  However the addict lacked any further talent or enough talent to be of use, so he was discarded and became yet another victim to drug addiction.  Where as Sells, had enough talent that he was given access to knowledge, also addictive and eventually became a sorcerer brewing the 3 Eye.

[Snark Knight]

However the addict lacked any further talent or enough talent to be of use, so he was discarded and became yet another victim to drug addiction.

Perhaps ... but what I'm suggesting is that maybe the 3-eye project was working towards not just expanding perception, but granting vanilla users enough power to perform summonings.  Either through longer term use of what they were already making, or maybe Sells was stopped before he worked out a technical difficulty in getting a fully working formula.

From Nemesis' perspective, addicts who would summon some of its foot soldiers in exchange for their next hit would be pretty much ideal.  It doesn't need them to be high-functioning for much else.

Which leads to another related speculation ... what if Sells' lack of fear of the Wardens wasn't, as Harry assumed, because his tutor just kept him ignorant of how dangerous they were, but rather because Sells meant to summon a protector that could tank anything the Wardens tried to do to it?  That's got me wondering if Sells' toad demon that Harry fought was actually a minor outsider, and Harry just never considered it anything more than a Nevernever demon because his power actually worked on it, and it's received wisdom for him at that point that that means Nevernever demon, not Outsider?

[Mira]

Perhaps ... but what I'm suggesting is that maybe the 3-eye project was working towards not just expanding perception, but granting vanilla users enough power to perform summonings.  Either through longer term use of what they were already making, or maybe Sells was stopped before he worked out a technical difficulty in getting a fully working formula.

Vanilla humans have always had the power to summon Outsiders.  I believe that was the point in Blood Rites.  My point is, without education the addict would see the Outsider but have no clue what he or she was seeing.  Need to go back and reread the passage, because I cannot remember if the addict called what he saw by name or not.  Even if he just called it an Outsider, he wouldn't know what he was seeing beyond a drug induced hallucination, which would be very real in that moment.

[KurtinStGeorge]

The three-eye addict specifically named the Walker.  Here is the exact quote:

"Wizard!" he trumpeted. "Wizard! I see you! I see you, wizard! I see the things that follow, those who walk before and He Who Walks Behind! They come, they come for you!"

Here is an edited version of what Harry said after this encounter:

"...I am marked, indelibly, with the remnants of the presence of a hunter-spirit, a sort of spectral hit man known as He Who Walks Behind...but even though the hunter-spirit had never gotten to me, the mark could still be seen upon me by those who knew how, by using the Third Sight, stretching out behind me like a long and horribly shaped shadow. Sort of a spiritual scar to remind me of the encounter.

But only a wizard had that kind of vision, ... And that junkie had been no wizard.

Was it possible that I had been wrong in my initial assessment of ThreeEye? Could the drug genuinely grant to its users the visions of the Third Sight?"

So, the three-eye addict saw the mark of HWWB.  The addict also mentions "those who walk before."  Maybe that refers to other Outsiders the addict saw or it could be something Jim has retconned out of the story.  I used to think it referred to the Walker we met in Cold Days, but it doesn't make sense that HWWBf or any Outsiders would be running around Chicago at that time.

Now that I think about, it might fit with my, Elaine is nemfected idea, I posted in another thread.  I don't mean the three-eye addict saw Elaine, I mean he saw the Outsider magical traces that Elaine left on Harry in the moments that led up to Harry's final confrontation with Justin.  It is a reach, but it fits, maybe. 

Perhaps ... but what I'm suggesting is that maybe the 3-eye project was working towards not just expanding perception, but granting vanilla users enough power to perform summonings.  Either through longer term use of what they were already making, or maybe Sells was stopped before he worked out a technical difficulty in getting a fully working formula.

From Nemesis' perspective, addicts who would summon some of its foot soldiers in exchange for their next hit would be pretty much ideal.  It doesn't need them to be high-functioning for much else.

This is a good explanation why there were so many summoners on the barges that came to invade Demonreach in Cold Days and the summoner or summoners who; we were told in Dead Beat, called up Outsiders to fight the White Council on behalf of the Red Court.  Morgan said, "the mortal wizards who betrayed us," suggesting he believed wizards called up the Outsiders.  If you don't need wizards to call up Outsiders, only a ritual and maybe someone with a minor talent, then it doesn't have to be Cowl, Peabody (in Dead Beat) or any other Black Council wizard.

The summoners on the barges were cannon fodder.  No need for wizards to expose themselves to the dangers of attacking Demonreach or being in the middle of a battle between the White Coucil and Red Court.