It's all Mab's fault! (Battle Ground Spoilers)

[Bad Alias]

Harry suddenly (not before that) discovered that he couldn't raise his arm for a Forzare.

This proves Jim's not as terrible as everyone says. Can you imagine Harry's guilt if his use of forzare had caused Rudolph to flinch and shoot Murphy?

[Mira]

This proves Jim's not as terrible as everyone says. Can you imagine Harry's guilt if his use of forzare had caused Rudolph to flinch and shoot Murphy?

I don't know if he'd feel worse, dead is dead.. Even if he failed, at least he knew he tried to stop Rudolph.  Either way, it was such a dumb/pointless way for her to die.. And no, shooting the giant with the bazooka wasn't pointless, but being murdered by an insane cop with bad trigger habits is.

[StrayDog]

Mab may have been human once, but she either has forgotten how humans react, or she no longer cares.  She needed soldiers on the field, they are to be used and discarded as needed.

I vote for "she no longer cares". By my reckoning, Mab, and all of Winter for that matter, are Lawful Neutral while Summer is Chaotic Neutral.

[TrueMonk]

I don't know if he'd feel worse, dead is dead.. Even if he failed, at least he knew he tried to stop Rudolph.  Either way, it was such a dumb/pointless way for her to die.. And no, shooting the giant with the bazooka wasn't pointless, but being murdered by an insane cop with bad trigger habits is.

But is there more to it than it seems? We are discussing if someone else killed Murph by proxy here: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53854.0.html

Regarding the opening statement I would say it is all Mabs fault that humanity is not hit by the apocalypse. She lured Ethniu into attacking the only city that has a nearby super-supermax prison, rallied the people there to defend it (in her own way) and led the most dangerous attach.

[Mira]

But is there more to it than it seems? We are discussing if someone else killed Murph by proxy here: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53854.0.html

Regarding the opening statement I would say it is all Mabs fault that humanity is not hit by the apocalypse. She lured Ethniu into attacking the only city that has a nearby super-supermax prison, rallied the people there to defend it (in her own way) and led the most dangerous attach.

I don't think so, Murphy died because she did what she always did, go out to fight above her weight class.  In the past this plan has served her well, using her brains to guide her skills.  With the help of Mab's spell and her preplanning, it was serving her well again, both the motorcycle and the freedom from pain.  However one cannot plan for random nut cases.  I think Rudolph had been on the brink for years, the events in Chicago just pushed him over the edge.

 I doubt that anyone killed Murphy by proxy.  Yes, it took a burn from the Sword of Faith to sober Harry up, but the reason the Knights were so hell bent on stopping him from killing Rudolph is because it isn't Harry's place to judge his fate, that is up to human justice and the Almighty.  It stopped Harry from truly being guilty of murder not just from a human point of view, but the First Law of Magic, Harry would be executed one way or the other, and he is needed in the future.

[StrayDog]

I don't think so, Murphy died because she did what she always did, go out to fight above her weight class.  In the past this plan has served her well, using her brains to guide her skills.  With the help of Mab's spell and her preplanning, it was serving her well again, both the motorcycle and the freedom from pain.  However one cannot plan for random nut cases.  I think Rudolph had been on the brink for years, the events in Chicago just pushed him over the edge.

 I doubt that anyone killed Murphy by proxy.  Yes, it took a burn from the Sword of Faith to sober Harry up, but the reason the Knights were so hell bent on stopping him from killing Rudolph is because it isn't Harry's place to judge his fate, that is up to human justice and the Almighty.  It stopped Harry from truly being guilty of murder not just from a human point of view, but the First Law of Magic, Harry would be executed one way or the other, and he is needed in the future.

Murphy's death was IMO one of the best written parts of both books. A little wordy over the empty house bit but still well written. Harry's response as well as the Knights response was also well written.

[Snark Knight]

I agree as far as Murphy is concerned.  Rudolph, however wasn't a sacrifice, it will be interesting to see if he survived if what is left of his sanity is intact.

And what becomes of him otherwise. As much as Sanya and Butters were morally right that Harry shouldn't murder him in wrath, I suspect they were wrong that human justice would address him killing Murphy. Unless he's inclined to confess, there isn't even a body left after the valkyries took her away. The DV police aren't exactly proactive about missing persons during normal times, let alone amid tens of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced by the damage.

After the injuries and the scare Harry did to him, I wouldn't be surprised if he just gets more motivated and sneaky about destroying Harry from a distance. If he's sane enough to try to keep his job, his version of events is probably going to be "Bradley assaulted me then ran off, and Dresden tried to murder me with his bare hands. I don't know anything about Murphy, but they were probably both complicit in the terrorist attack".

[Telynn]

And what becomes of him otherwise. As much as Sanya and Butters were morally right that Harry shouldn't murder him in wrath, I suspect they were wrong that human justice would address him killing Murphy. Unless he's inclined to confess, there isn't even a body left after the valkyries took her away. The DV police aren't exactly proactive about missing persons during normal times, let alone amid tens of thousands dead and hundreds of thousands displaced by the damage.

After the injuries and the scare Harry did to him, I wouldn't be surprised if he just gets more motivated and sneaky about destroying Harry from a distance. If he's sane enough to try to keep his job, his version of events is probably going to be "Bradley assaulted me then ran off, and Dresden tried to murder me with his bare hands. I don't know anything about Murphy, but they were probably both complicit in the terrorist attack".

Yep.  You have to keep in mind how little any authorities can piece together any sort of crime during this whole thing.  Be a perfect time for someone with that sort of bent to take out someone they don't like.  No time to do a good investigation, crime scene trampled on by an invading force.  Almost all the dead are just going to be written off as part of the terrorist attack.  And in this specific case, no body.  I kept shaking my head every time someone said something about it is for the authorities to decide the justice.  Not that I don't agree with the idea that Harry shouldn't kill Rudolph, but telling him let the authorities handle it was a major cop out. 

[Mira]

Yep.  You have to keep in mind how little any authorities can piece together any sort of crime during this whole thing.  Be a perfect time for someone with that sort of bent to take out someone they don't like.  No time to do a good investigation, crime scene trampled on by an invading force.  Almost all the dead are just going to be written off as part of the terrorist attack.  And in this specific case, no body.  I kept shaking my head every time someone said something about it is for the authorities to decide the justice.  Not that I don't agree with the idea that Harry shouldn't kill Rudolph, but telling him let the authorities handle it was a major cop out.

Perhaps,  however he will get his eventually, divine justice if nothing else.  I'd be shocked if he manages to get Bradley to go along with anything against Harry.  Yeah, well if Harry had simply used a gun on him, he might get away with it, but he was going to use magic.. Butters told him best, they need "the good man" Harry, not a warlock.

[Telynn]

Perhaps,  however he will get his eventually, divine justice if nothing else.  I'd be shocked if he manages to get Bradley to go along with anything against Harry.  Yeah, well if Harry had simply used a gun on him, he might get away with it, but he was going to use magic.. Butters told him best, they need "the good man" Harry, not a warlock.

That's something I was wondering.  Would killing Rudolph by physically crushing him with his magical shield count as killing someone with magic?  I mean, he could have picked up any strong object and done the same thing. 

[Arjan]

That's something I was wondering.  Would killing Rudolph by physically crushing him with his magical shield count as killing someone with magic?  I mean, he could have picked up any strong object and done the same thing.

still it was his magic.

[Mira]

That's something I was wondering.  Would killing Rudolph by physically crushing him with his magical shield count as killing someone with magic?  I mean, he could have picked up any strong object and done the same thing.

Technically, I would think so, since it would be deliberate and not an accident.  And consider, if they tried to pin First Law charges on Harry for killing Turtlenecks, they'd have his head for sure with Rudolph.  I think Butters and Sanya were more worried about what it would do to Harry's soul if nothing else. 

While we are on the subject, why was it that Michael's Angel guard detail not be able to stop the Turtlenecks?  They aren't exactly human anymore, they have gills, or can they get through simply because they are mortal?

[Dina]

Telynn, precisely If he had picked an object, it would have been killing for humans, but no magic law would have been broked. But the shield is magic, he would have been executed as Mira says.

And I agree, Snark Knight. Rudolph is going to get revenge on Harry, but I don't know if physically or if he will try to complicate things for him with the vanilla authorities. I just hope it backfires. As I said before, he is Gollum, the fact that Harry allowed him to live will be good in the long term.

[morriswalters]

When Ethniu takes the field and starts blasting things with the Eye of Balor, Mab counters with a psychic assault all over the city, strengthening her allies and oppressing her enemies.

So... two things to note:

1. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Murphy might well have stayed at Mac's. The pain from her injuries would have prevented her from riding a motorcycle and shouldering a bazooka. And her desire to protect might well have overruled her desire to kick ass.

2. Without Mab "Preparing the Field" Rudolph might not have been so insanely panicked -- not to the point that his partner had to knock him unconscious.

3.  Without preparing the field Chicago might have died.

People die in wars, it's the whole point. Harry's response is altogether something else.

[Avernite]

Technically, I would think so, since it would be deliberate and not an accident.  And consider, if they tried to pin First Law charges on Harry for killing Turtlenecks, they'd have his head for sure with Rudolph.  I think Butters and Sanya were more worried about what it would do to Harry's soul if nothing else. 

While we are on the subject, why was it that Michael's Angel guard detail not be able to stop the Turtlenecks?  They aren't exactly human anymore, they have gills, or can they get through simply because they are mortal?

The angels are Michael's retirement package.

Michael and his family weren't there.

Hence, no smiting was necessary. I think this would have been a bit of a borderline case, so Molly did Uriel a favour by avoiding the need for smiting.