Will the Outsider, HWWBehind, turn out to be the unsung hero at the end?

[Marconesque]

As we all know HWWBehind could ve killed Harry during the  altercation he had with DuMorne, but he chose not to.

It implies that he also considers Harry's  life worthy, possibly because he knows his potential in the long term [A Starborn that has the chance against the crazed Outsiders]
*Note that it was speculated that the Outsider had control over DuMorne, not vice versa

Any other Outsider Harry encountered, would have had no problems taking him out,[as we have seen with Sharkface and HWWBesides] indicating that almost all of them share the same goal (boiling down reality to nothingness)

But HWWB is different. Could he be the Thomas of the Outsiders? A monster that goes against his instincts and tries to see the bigger picture?

It would certainly be interesting, seeing how HHWB has been grooming Dresden for decades. Hell, he might even have had an influence over Margaret LeFay or even Blackstaff for that matter (Seeing the link Papa Raith had with HWWB) It would make him an even greater 4d chess player than Mab

[TheCuriousFan]

That'd be a fun idea, I'm hoping for something like that to break up the faceless wall of tentacle feel they've got at the moment.

[ClintACK]

He Who Walks Before did try to talk to Harry and get him either to stand aside or join them.

I don't love the idea of a rebel, redeemable Outsider. They're supposed to be so alien there's no room for common ground and coexistence. If they aren't that alien, if they aren't an existential threat, then what's the point of any of this?

[The_Sibelis]

HWWBH is definitely a double agent. I'm thinking he's who had control of Cat Sith, the 'look behind you' joke on Harry, the subtle control he had in attacking Harry. Looking at Nemesis and Hwwb4 neither pulled any punches vs Harry. Behind has tho, perhaps repeatedly.
I favor the idea when hwwbh 'imprinted' himself on harry, marked him, he basically defined a container that Harry has slowly been filling up to be MORE like hwwbh... Harry is his preferred host for reasons unknown.. he wasn't just filled with rage and hate, but loathing of self too. That matches Harry's own development.

[Mira]

HWWBH is definitely a double agent. I'm thinking he's who had control of Cat Sith, the 'look behind you' joke on Harry, the subtle control he had in attacking Harry. Looking at Nemesis and Hwwb4 neither pulled any punches vs Harry. Behind has tho, perhaps repeatedly.
I favor the idea when hwwbh 'imprinted' himself on harry, marked him, he basically defined a container that Harry has slowly been filling up to be MORE like hwwbh... Harry is his preferred host for reasons unknown.. he wasn't just filled with rage and hate, but loathing of self too. That matches Harry's own development.

Except I don't think that can happen because Harry is star born.  An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him, at least according to Lash, they cannot.

[Arjan]

Except I don't think that can happen because Harry is star born.  An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him, at least according to Lash, they cannot.

They can not or he is just better at resisting it?

You have the potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you.

[The_Sibelis]

Except I don't think that can happen because Harry is star born.  An Outsider cannot mentally whammy him, at least according to Lash, they cannot.

reread it again, he can't be corrupted by enteracting with them. He can get whammies just like anyone else. But that's besides the point, nothing was done to him to compel him, not on the mental level.
*Lash would not needed to have died otherwise.

[Mira]

reread it again, he can't be corrupted by enteracting with them. He can get whammies just like anyone else. But that's besides the point, nothing was done to him to compel him, not on the mental level.
*Lash would not needed to have died otherwise.

I'm not sure what you are saying.  Harry was aware of what Vittorio was doing with his attack, he wasn't compelled to nothing.  He knew he couldn't do anything, or at least at that point because he had no clue that he was a star born and had power over Outsiders. 

Lasciel/Lash then tried to tempt him to take up the coin so he could fight them.  Harry refused, he didn't want to be a slave to her, he'd rather die or go mad with his friends.  When he doesn't give in, she agrees that Lasciel doesn't deserve him, then she explains to him that he can fight them and had before when he was sixteen.  Then she took the psychic bullet for Harry and he was able to move and fight.

They can not or he is just better at resisting it?

Both I think, it is like when he and Eb fought the cornerhounds.  Eb knew about fighting them, but they were afraid of Harry and he was actually able to see what they see when they see him. 

What makes Outsiders so bad ass is their psychic attic.  And they did make an effort to recruit him, or Sharkface did in Cold Days.  Harry is able to see through that and not be influenced. 

[The_Sibelis]

@mira, you said lash said he was immune to mental whammy, never said that, if he was immune to it she need not have sacrificed herself. What he's immune to is corruption/influence by mentally rubbing shoulders against them. If they break open his mind and leave him a blithering idiot he's going to be a blithering idiot..

[Mira]

@mira, you said lash said he was immune to mental whammy, never said that, if he was immune to it she need not have sacrificed herself. What he's immune to is corruption/influence by mentally rubbing shoulders against them. If they break open his mind and leave him a blithering idiot he's going to be a blithering idiot..

At that point in the story though, he hadn't even realized he could battle them, or know how.  First Lash tries one last time for him to take up the coin, to fight them, but he refuses, that is when he says he'd rather have rice pudding for a brain than take up a coin.. Then she tells him he has power over them.  However she doesn't tell him how to fight them, just that he can.  He still need help though at that point.  I didn't say immune, what I said that it is hard to put the whammy on someone who is aware you are trying to do it.  That enables Harry to resist, then fight them.  If they could do it, don't you think Justine would have done it on the Beetle as tired, hurt, and distracted by grief as Harry was in that moment?  If ever Harry was vulnerable to a mental attack, that was it.

[The_Sibelis]

@Mira.... Im not even sure what your linearly talking about anymore compared to what started this conversation... You said lash said outsiders cannot mentally whammy him, I pointed out this is untrue. What did or didn't happen on the boat is ilrelavent to that. He's not immune to psychic attack and nobody has ever said he was, not even from outsiders.

[Telynn]

Here is something I was wondering, and I'm sure you guys will know of examples of this one way or the other.  Can the Outsiders do the mental whammy when they have possession of someone?  Or are they somewhat limited to what capabilities that person has?   I'm trying to think of when that mental whammy was used and it seems only when the outsider was themselves (sharkface for example).  But maybe not in the deeps? 

[TheCuriousFan]

Here is something I was wondering, and I'm sure you guys will know of examples of this one way or the other.  Can the Outsiders do the mental whammy when they have possession of someone?  Or are they somewhat limited to what capabilities that person has?   I'm trying to think of when that mental whammy was used and it seems only when the outsider was themselves (sharkface for example).  But maybe not in the deeps?

Our first example of that whammy was from Vittorio who was just possessed.

[Telynn]

Our first example of that whammy was from Vittorio who was just possessed.

That's right.  And that isn't something he would be capable of on his own, I don't think.  Was just thinking they might be limited based on who they possess.  But maybe not.

[The_Sibelis]

That's right.  And that isn't something he would be capable of on his own, I don't think.  Was just thinking they might be limited based on who they possess.  But maybe not.

well there is one big difference, he was possessing vitto, but dominating Justine and Sith. Perhaps it takes too much focus to control someone as to allow another heavily focused action.