Anyone Else Surprised or Disappointed That Harry

[Uriel_spook]

This one also bugged me quite a bit over the course of the two books.  Didn't understand it at all.

   Didn't talk to Ivy?  Yes, I understand she is totally into her Archive role now, but she is still Ivy.  I
believe that Ivy still sees Harry as a friend.  What I thought was weird, he didn't even give her
a head nod in acknowledgement or vice versa..

[BrainFireBob]

This one also bugged me quite a bit over the course of the two books.  Didn't understand it at all.

Why? Harry and Kincaid are existential threats to the Archive.

[Arjan]

And as friends both Harry and Kincaid have betrayed Ivy.

[Mira]

And as friends both Harry and Kincaid have betrayed Ivy.

In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.

[Avernite]

In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.

Pocket money? Nah, Kincaid was repaying a favor.

Mind: neither of them thought of Ivy, indeed, so I agree it was indiffernce. Wouldn't surprise me if that has allowed the Archive to mold her into a more standard/neutral vessel as well, but would also expect Harry to not know that.

I do partly wonder if it's deliberate; Harry hanging with Lara, Mab and Molly but being snappy and agressive to Carlos and ignoring Ivy... almost as if some of his generic humanity was indeed bleeding out.

[Arjan]

In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.

I think it did cross Kincaid’s mind, he is not stupid, but he could not refuse. Harry called in a debt. It did not cross Harry’s mind that he would hurt Ivy as suicides often do not get that they are betraying people by leaving them.

[Dina]

I was very surprised and angry at Harry not doing as much of a nod or a smile to Ivy. I still think he did not know that Ivy would find his suicide attempt.

In what way? Betrayal suggests that it was a deliberate attempt to hurt her.   What they did was between them, what they are guilty of is indifference.  She was the last person Harry would think of in his pain, suicides don't think of others, only their own pain.  Kincaid saw it only as a job that would make him some pocket money.  Kincaid is a killer, that is what he does, thinking that killing Harry would hurt Ivy, never entered his mind.

I disagree, Mira. Kinkaid did not want to do the killing ,he did it because he owned Harry and perhaps because he agreed with him. Being dead was better than become a monster, and none of them had faith in Harry keeping his humanity after becoming a WK. So I think Kinkaid actually wanted to help Harry, perhaps humanity and...Ivy herself, who would be disappointed if Harry changed and became a monster.

[Mira]

I disagree, Mira. Kinkaid did not want to do the killing ,he did it because he owned Harry and perhaps because he agreed with him. Being dead was better than become a monster, and none of them had faith in Harry keeping his humanity after becoming a WK. So I think Kinkaid actually wanted to help Harry, perhaps humanity and...Ivy herself, who would be disappointed if Harry changed and became a monster.

You could be right, but that wasn't Eb's take on him in Blood Rites.  Now Eb could be wrong, hopefully he is wrong about the White Court, but he seemed to have the same hate for Kincaid.  The question then becomes, why?

[Arjan]

You could be right, but that wasn't Eb's take on him in Blood Rites.  Now Eb could be wrong, hopefully he is wrong about the White Court, but he seemed to have the same hate for Kincaid.  The question then becomes, why?

Because Eb has a very strong opinion about the monsters. All of them.

[StrayDog]

Indifference is a betrayal too. What did Mab say about hate and love? She thinks logic is the opposite but it actually is indifference / apathy.

[Mira]

Indifference is a betrayal too. What did Mab say about hate and love? She thinks logic is the opposite but it actually is indifference / apathy.

However, the Archive feels none of that, or shouldn't and retain her mental health. As Luccio says
in Small Favor.  "As a defense, the Archive began to distance themselves from other human beings,
emotionally.
She goes on to say; "Archive keeps its host emotionally remote for a reason---because otherwise the
passions and prejudices and hatreds and jealousies of thousands of lifetimes have potential to distil themselves into a single being."

So it seems that Ivy has grown up, she has become "The Archive."  Any pain she may have felt emotionally by Harry's suicide or Kincaid's assistance, she has removed herself except for on final request/order to Kincaid, make it a chest shot [possible survival] instead of a head shot, [most likely certain death.]  Ivy knows both were her only friends, but the Archive knows she cannot have any friends.

[Dina]

I think you may be right, the Archive is isolating herself but a) that does not explain why Harry didn't react to her, with a smile or something. b) we know Harry will reach her at some point  . He will bypass her "walls".

[The_Sibelis]

I'm still betting the archive itself has a mechanism to ensure its survival by procreation... And the only healthy male she has any connection to that didn't raise her is Harry..

[Arjan]

I think you may be right, the Archive is isolating herself but a) that does not explain why Harry didn't react to her, with a smile or something. b) we know Harry will reach her at some point  . He will bypass her "walls".

Because Harry feels guilty and not without reason. That makes it difficult to decide how to interact which leads to avoidance which is wrong but all too human.

[Dina]

Arjan, yes. But is similar occasions Harry's inner monologue has informed us that he was actively avoiding her or something like that because he felt guilty. So I rephrase. I am not so surprised that Harry did not do anything but as him not "thinking" anything to explain that.

The_Sibelis. I hope not. Harry has not spoken with her (apparently, or as far as we know) in years. Perhaps she already has a boyfriend or something. If not, Harry should introduce her to the Carpenters boys