Author Topic: Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.  (Read 9409 times)

Offline Shift8

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Notice your use of "I." Your conceptual gap is your fanon. You don't trust the White Council, or its understanding of how black magic works, despite Harry agreeing with them on how it works and "taints" the magic of a wizard or sorcerer.

Harry chose to make a Faustian bargain for selfish reasons- paternal love for a child. While sympathetic, it was in some respects the moral equivalent of having a child needing an organ donor and murdering people until a matching donor was found- that's what the "whatever" in "whatever it takes" means. Harry is going to kill whatever he needs to kill, and allow whatever friends and allies need to die to die, to save Maggie. He might feel bad about it later, but he's quite clear that feeling bad later isn't going to stop him now. That's . .not a good choice, from a strictly moral perspective.

It worked out for him. Intentions do in fact matter, not just actions. If my wife is having a heart attack and I run a red light because she's dying on the way to the hospital, but then run over a pedestrian, it is neither legally nor morally the same as slamming on my gas when I see a pedestrian walking to run them over laughing. One is Murder 1: Deliberate and malicious homicide, one is negligent homicide or reckless endangerment- I knowingly took actions I knew *might* result in the death of someone but neither intended them to result nor planned for them to result. It's why such distinctions exist. In fact, that's the essence of the self-defense defense Harry has vs Justin- Harry did not want to kill Justin, he wanted to not-be-dead from Justin, which required killing same. No malice or enjoyment, the intention was self-preservation.

Harry annihilated the Red Court- and the heroic Fellowship of St. Giles. Good with the bad. He didn't do it for the war, or even to save his own life- in that respect, *not* selfish. He did it for his personal child- not all the children the Red Court regularly killed. It was personal.

"Buts" are justifications, not validations.
Notice your use of "I." Your conceptual gap is your fanon. You don't trust the White Council, or its understanding of how black magic works, despite Harry agreeing with them on how it works and "taints" the magic of a wizard or sorcerer.



Nope. This has been alluded to in WOJ, and in the books directly. The laws do not make moral sense. Luccio even says that they are about power, not morality. And you realize that both the WC and Harry can be wrong right? And even if this was not the case, I am well within my rights to have a "fanon" and argue the point if the "canon" doesn't make any sense.


Harry chose to make a Faustian bargain for selfish reasons- paternal love for a child. While sympathetic, it was in some respects the moral equivalent of having a child needing an organ donor and murdering people until a matching donor was found- that's what the "whatever" in "whatever it takes" means. Harry is going to kill whatever he needs to kill, and allow whatever friends and allies need to die to die, to save Maggie. He might feel bad about it later, but he's quite clear that feeling bad later isn't going to stop him now. That's . .not a good choice, from a strictly moral perspective.

It worked out for him. Intentions do in fact matter, not just actions. If my wife is having a heart attack and I run a red light because she's dying on the way to the hospital, but then run over a pedestrian, it is neither legally nor morally the same as slamming on my gas when I see a pedestrian walking to run them over laughing. One is Murder 1: Deliberate and malicious homicide, one is negligent homicide or reckless endangerment- I knowingly took actions I knew *might* result in the death of someone but neither intended them to result nor planned for them to result. It's why such distinctions exist. In fact, that's the essence of the self-defense defense Harry has vs Justin- Harry did not want to kill Justin, he wanted to not-be-dead from Justin, which required killing same. No malice or enjoyment, the intention was self-preservation.

Harry annihilated the Red Court- and the heroic Fellowship of St. Giles. Good with the bad. He didn't do it for the war, or even to save his own life- in that respect, *not* selfish. He did it for his personal child- not all the children the Red Court regularly killed. It was personal.

"Buts" are justifications, not validations.

- sorry but who did Harry Murder exactly?

-I said motivations, not intentions. There is a difference. Intentions are what you are striving to accomplish. Motivations are why you want to accomplish it. And I did not say motivations are totally irrelevant, I said they only apply in certain cases and in certain ways.

"If my wife is having a heart attack and I run a red light because she's dying on the way to the hospital, but then run over a pedestrian, it is neither legally nor morally the same as slamming on my gas when I see a pedestrian walking to run them over laughing."

Your right, these are entirely different. But its the action that is different. In case one the choice you made was to violate a utilitarian law (traffic laws) in order to save you wife. Given the circumstances, the violation is justified. In the second case you chose to violate the law without a good reason, and in fact you had a abhorrent reason which only increases the terribleness of the crime.

What you accused Harry of is entirely different. It would be like if Harry got in his car and decided to speed because he had to get his wife to the hospital. Then he ran a red light due to the first reason, but when he did so he thought it was funny when there happened to be a person there and he ran them over. The fact that he enjoyed killing the person makes him guilty of nothing, since the justification for running the red light was already present even if that person had not been there or they had never been run over.

" In fact, that's the essence of the self-defense defense Harry has vs Justin- Harry did not want to kill Justin, he wanted to not-be-dead from Justin, which required killing same. No malice or enjoyment, the intention was self-preservation."

If I enjoy killing someone in self defense it makes me guilty of nothing. What matters is why would not kill someone. In other words, if I enjoyed killing people, would I restrain myself from doing so if I knew there was no justification to do so.

Offline Shift8

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The point of bringing up sexual harassment is that adult's decision making is compromised when their teacher is asking them something. That's why professors aren't allowed to sleep with their students.

Your teacher shouldn't be asking you for sex and he shouldn't be asking you to risk your life and potentially go dark side. And an apprentice's master has even more authority over her than a professor or teacher.

The difference here, as I went to great lengths to explain, is that the reason why you ask for something in a situation like this matters. If a professor asked his or her students for help in clearing their neighborhood of street thugs (ignore the vigilantism for the sake of argument) is not the same as asking the students for sexual favors. And like I said, this entire situation is the fault of either Molly of the WC, not Harry.

And second, the rules regarding adult professors and adult students are utilitarian and not moral. And professor and a student having sexual relations would be fine so long as the professor is not granting grading favors or threatening the student with reprisal if the student does not want to be in a relationship. The reason we ban this outright is because purely utilitarian, like a lot of laws. It is hard to know what the relationship between the student and professor was. It also causes problems with conflicts of interests. Even if the professor never gave the student better grades, it is an unacceptable situation for everyone else in the class or school to accept that situation.

Offline morriswalters

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I was perusing the WOJ database looking for things that might be relevant to some BG theories. I came across one where Jim is responding to a person who is disappointed about changes. This persons complaint was that they had been wondering what would make Harry act in immoral fashion. Essentially, what kind of pressure would it take to make Harry go over the edge? This person was disappointed because as they saw it, the fact that Jim made it so that Harry was trying to save Maggie turned the moral dilemma into a cop out.

Jim then responds by explaining that Maggie being in danger doesn't excuse Dresden because that's not a good enough excuse.

My confusion is that I don't get what exactly Harry was supposed to have done wrong in Changes. What was the big moral dilemma?
Read Ghost Story.  The whole book is about what he did.  It isn't about anyone other than Molly.  He threw her under the bus out of selfishness. It wasn't the assault on the Reds, it was asking Molly to do Black magic because he didn't want to face the consequences of his choices. And then leaving her alone. The Fallen Angel made him feel despair, but his pain was no excuse to hurt Molly.
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I’d saved Maggie—but had I destroyed my apprentice in doing so? The fact that I’d gotten myself killed had no relative bearing on the morality of my actions, if I had. You can’t just walk around picking and choosing which lives to save and which to destroy. The inherent arrogance and the underlying evil of such a thing runs too deep to be avoided—no matter how good your intentions might be.

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 542). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Offline Mira

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    I’d saved Maggie—but had I destroyed my apprentice in doing so? The fact that I’d gotten myself killed had no relative bearing on the morality of my actions, if I had. You can’t just walk around picking and choosing which lives to save and which to destroy. The inherent arrogance and the underlying evil of such a thing runs too deep to be avoided—no matter how good your intentions might be.

    Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 542). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Or one has an over active guilt complex, and gives his apprentice absolutely no credit for making her own choices whether they were right or wrong.  Perhaps his choices were wrong, but he didn't force her to make the wrong choices, she did that on her own.

Offline Shift8

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Or one has an over active guilt complex, and gives his apprentice absolutely no credit for making her own choices whether they were right or wrong.  Perhaps his choices were wrong, but he didn't force her to make the wrong choices, she did that on her own.

This is a great point. Harry throughout the series has this complex. In fact this complex is sometimes a trope that gets explicitly exposed during a story, namely that when a character frequently ascribes too much blame to themselves it is a sign of a certain degree of narcissism.

Offline Arjan

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Or one has an over active guilt complex,
Sometimes and not always about the right things. His guilt about killing Susan was unnecessary but the guilt about Molly came far too late.
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and gives his apprentice absolutely no credit for making her own choices
Molly had her own responsibilities but that does not change Harry’s responsibilities. You are responsible for what you ask of people especially when you have a better idea of the consequences than the one you ask.
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whether they were right or wrong.  Perhaps his choices were wrong, but he didn't force her to make the wrong choices, she did that on her own.
Nothing she did with magic was on her own. She was under the doom. Following the councils rules Harry was responsible, with his head, for everything she did.

Basically he asked her to commit near suicide for his benefit while he was responsible for her well being. Just saying that she was an adult is not enough.

That is the logic of a con man. You sell someone a bridge and you say things like she is an adult, she is responsible for her choices, she should have known, ...

There is a limit to that. You are always responsible for what you ask from someone. That does not cancel the other persons responsibility but Harry has responsibility too.

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Offline morriswalters

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“And much more,” Uriel said. “She still has her life. Her future. Her freedom. You did save her, you know. The idea to have her call to Mortimer in the closing moments of the psychic battle was inspired.” “I’ve cost her too much,” I said quietly. “I believe that when you went after your daughter, you said something about letting the world burn. That you and your daughter would roast marshmallows.” I nodded bleakly. “It is one thing for you to say, ‘Let the world burn.’ It is another to say, ‘Let Molly burn.’ The difference is all in the name.” “Yeah,” I croaked. “I’m starting to realize that. Too late to do any good. But I get it.” Uriel gave me a steady look and said nothing. I shook my head. “Get some rest, kid,” I called, though I knew she wouldn’t hear me. “You’ve earned it.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (p. 555). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Maybe you'll believe Uriel. This isn't about what Molly did or didn't do.  The moral choice is Harry's.  No moral person would ever ask this much of another. That she chose to do it doesn't change that. His sin was in ever asking.

Offline Shift8

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You are always responsible for what you ask from someone.

Uh no, that's why its called asking. Its a question you know.



Basically he asked her to commit near suicide for his benefit while he was responsible for her well being. Just saying that she was an adult is not enough.



Um...so where is the crime here exactly? Whats wrong with asking her to kill him? And yes being adult is enough. An adult is an entirely independent entity. And we have been over this, the mentor/apprentice situation is either Molly's or the WC's fault. Arguing Dresden is a slave to this situation is a total non-starter.




That is the logic of a con man. You sell someone a bridge and you say things like she is an adult, she is responsible for her choices, she should have known, ...

.

A con man? What? Molly understood the risks well enough. And to boot, a person does not have a moral responsibility to give out information to their own detriment. It is one thing to tell you it is safe to walk through a curtain behind which is a cliff, and another to sell you an overpriced TV without explaining to you that you could get a better deal. The former is wrong, the latter entirely justified.

Offline Shift8

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Maybe you'll believe Uriel. This isn't about what Molly did or didn't do.  The moral choice is Harry's.  No moral person would ever ask this much of another. That she chose to do it doesn't change that. His sin was in ever asking.

Please. We ask this much of people all the time. Or have you never heard of a military draft? Hell, forget a draft, by your logic we couldn't even ask for volunteers.  Also I could really care less about what Uriel says or doesn't say. Uriel is right about some things and wrong about others, just like anyone else.

Offline Mira

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Nothing she did with magic was on her own. She was under the doom. Following the councils rules Harry was responsible, with his head, for everything she did.

Wrong, what she did in Turn Coat was done on her own.  Under the Doom, Harry may have been held responsible for what she did, but what she did, she did on her own.

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That is the logic of a con man. You sell someone a bridge and you say things like she is an adult, she is responsible for her choices, she should have known, ...

To a degree that is true, that is why the con works.  An adult should know that that famous bridge in Brooklyn would never be for sale.. However adults are not paragons of virtue either, they can be greedy and ignore the old adage, " if it seems too good to be true, then is more than likely is."  Or as W.C. Fields would say, or maybe it was P.T. Barnum, "There is a sucker born every minute..."  Adults will buy that bridge every time with their eyes wide open because they think there is something in it for them. 

Offline Arjan

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Uh no, that's why its called asking. Its a question you know.
If I ask you to murder someone and you do it they will lock me up too. And rightly so.
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Um...so where is the crime here exactly? Whats wrong with asking her to kill him? And yes being adult is enough. An adult is an entirely independent entity. And we have been over this, the mentor/apprentice situation is either Molly's or the WC's fault. Arguing Dresden is a slave to this situation is a total non-starter.
It made Molly a fugitive hunted by the council. He was basically asking her to kill herself in the process but he did not explain that to her. He speculated that eb or listens would help.
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A con man? What? Molly understood the risks well enough. And to boot, a person does not have a moral responsibility to give out information to their own detriment. It is one thing to tell you it is safe to walk through a curtain behind which is a cliff, and another to sell you an overpriced TV without explaining to you that you could get a better deal. The former is wrong, the latter entirely justified.
It was the cliff situation. He did not tell the council would hunt her.

And I would not say the second thing is morally right. Especially when you have a master pupil relationship with all kinds of moral responsibilities.

And the next step from selling someone an overpriced tv is selling him a mortgage he can not handle. These acts may be legal but the damage done is bigger than if you just broke into his house and took that overpriced tv.

Morally you are more evil than that burglar. You can get into hell without breaking any laws.
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Offline Shift8

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If I ask you to murder someone and you do it they will lock me up too. And rightly so. It made Molly a fugitive hunted by the council. He was basically asking her to kill herself in the process but he did not explain that to her. He speculated that eb or listens would help.It was the cliff situation. He did not tell the council would hunt her.

And I would not say the second thing is morally right. Especially when you have a master pupil relationship with all kinds of moral responsibilities.

And the next step from selling someone an overpriced tv is selling him a mortgage he can not handle. These acts may be legal but the damage done is bigger than if you just broke into his house and took that overpriced tv.

Morally you are more evil than that burglar. You can get into hell without breaking any laws.

-Oh come on. The difference there is obvious. If you ask someone to murder someone it is equivalent to doing the murder yourself because you are asking for something that is not justified for the person (or for you) to do. Asking Molly to take risks and kill Harry is perfectly justifiable. It is Harry's life, so he can ask someone to end it if he pleases, especially since he was doing it to prevent his being used by Mab.

-So what. Molly knew back when she was tried the first time that there would be severe consequences if she was found out again. Second, its not clear that she was necessarily going to be caught. Third, its not the cliff situation because her death was not certain. Clearly, as she is still alive. Dresden didn't deprive her of her ability to defend herself or hide from the WC. Fourth, Molly's situation was beyond Dresden's control and he is not responsible for what the WC does to her. Fifth, she was going to be up a creek without a paddle anyhow since Dresden was going to be the winter knight if she didnt kill him or wipe his memories.

Maybe I am forgetting something, but I would love to know how the WC was supposed to know that Molly was responsible for wipe his memories. Could have been anyone, including Harry. Hell, how did they know Dresden had his memories wiped after making the deal with Mab?

-I am perfectly within my rights to sell you a mortgage you cannot handle so long as you know the details of the mortgage. Its hardly my responsibility to stop someone from being an idiot. I, not anyone else, was born into this world with a responsibility to stop idiots from being idiots.

-There is no such thing as hell. And if there were, it would be more morally reprehensible than anything discussed here.

Offline Shift8

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Also Molly did know, as of way back in proven guilty:

“Yeah,” I said. “You have a couple of choices to make, Molly. Starting with whether or not you want to turn yourself in to the Council.”
She rocked back and forth, a nervous motion. “Why would I?”
“Because they’re going to find you, sooner or later. If that happens, if they think you’re trying to avoid them, they’ll probably kill you out of hand. But if you’re willing to cooperate and face up to what you’ve done, and if someone intercedes on your behalf, the Council might withhold a death sentence.”

“The first time you screw up and slip deeper into bad habits, it kills both of us. I’m going to be tough on you sometimes, Molly. I have to be. It’s as much for my survival as yours. Got it?”
“Yes,” she said.”

Offline Shift8

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“Because in some ways you are every bit as arrogant as the Council, though you do not realize it. You blame yourself for what happened to Susan. You want to blame yourself for more.”

Offline Telynn

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Michael slapping Harry across the face with this very subject in Skin Game is one of my favorite scenes.