Question regarding a WOJ about "Changes". -I dont see what Harry did wrong.

[Shift8]

I was perusing the WOJ database looking for things that might be relevant to some BG theories. I came across one where Jim is responding to a person who is disappointed about changes. This persons complaint was that they had been wondering what would make Harry act in immoral fashion. Essentially, what kind of pressure would it take to make Harry go over the edge? This person was disappointed because as they saw it, the fact that Jim made it so that Harry was trying to save Maggie turned the moral dilemma into a cop out.

Jim then responds by explaining that Maggie being in danger doesn't excuse Dresden because that's not a good enough excuse.

My confusion is that I don't get what exactly Harry was supposed to have done wrong in Changes. What was the big moral dilemma?

[noblehunter]

In Changes, Harry was willing to get almost all of his friends killed in what was, as far as he knew, a vain attempt to rescue his daughter. He says several times that he was willing to let the world burn if it would get him Maggie back. He also believed he was selling his soul to Mab. Fortunately, the author hadn't entirely abandoned him so his bad intentions mostly came out okay. With two exceptions.

He asks a reforming warlock to help him commit suicide, which would lead the council to kill her as well, by coming up to the very edge of what is permitted under the Laws. Then he allows her, a sensitive magic user rather than a brawler, to come to a nexus of black magic and be in the middle of a nasty stand up fight with a gang of demigods plus their army. Molly was traumatized and, even if Harry had survived, might have lost her chance at not becoming a full-time warlock.

He also murdered Martin and Susan, which while justifiable by certain standards of morality is still something a stand-up hero should do.

[Shift8]

-I don't recall Harry actually doing anything that got his friends killed or put them in danger. He asked people to help him, and they obliged. Also saving Maggie was a perfectly good reason to go to extremes. Not to mention that all of these actions were really part of the war with the Vampires, so nothing can really be said about the motives of Harry since he had knowledge that he was acting within said war. Saving his daughter was also tantamount to winning the war and saving himself and the Eb. Whatever Harry did, he acted knowing that he was acting within the context of the greater war.

-I dont see a problem with having Molly help him kill himself, especially since it was a fail safe against Mab manipulating him. I also don't see how allowing her to fight is a problem either. Molly is a big girl and makes her own choices. And asking a weaker person to fight is hardly a moral crime.

-That is and extremely....interesting...definition of murder. Martin was an asshole working for the Red Court and had betrayed them all. Susan literally told Dresden to kill her in order to take out the Red Court. Why should a stand-up hero not do that? Its not heroic to have absurd and unprincipled standards that are devoid of context. Even if Susan had not given her assent to Harry, he would have been justified in killing her to activate the spell because she was dead or worse if he didn't. The situation is so black and white its not even funny imo.

[Telynn]

My problem with the position he put Molly in was, wouldn't him dying while she was under the doom inact her death sentence?  The wizard who put himself out there to rehabilitate her dies, unless someone else stepped forward wouldn't she then be put to death?  I always felt that was a bit crappy of him. 

[Shift8]

My problem with the position he put Molly in was, wouldn't him dying while she was under the doom inact her death sentence?  The wizard who put himself out there to rehabilitate her dies, unless someone else stepped forward wouldn't she then be put to death?  I always felt that was a bit crappy of him.

Molly is and was a big girl who can make her own choices. Dresden didn't mind control her. And he didn't ask favors lightly, he asked her to do it because of extreme need. That's not being jerk. And Molly took a risk, it was not a death sentence. As evinced by her still being alive.

[TheCuriousFan]

-I don't recall Harry actually doing anything that got his friends killed or put them in danger. He asked people to help him, and they obliged. Also saving Maggie was a perfectly good reason to go to extremes. Not to mention that all of these actions were really part of the war with the Vampires, so nothing can really be said about the motives of Harry since he had knowledge that he was acting within said war. Saving his daughter was also tantamount to winning the war and saving himself and the Eb. Whatever Harry did, he acted knowing that he was acting within the context of the greater war.

-I dont see a problem with having Molly help him kill himself, especially since it was a fail safe against Mab manipulating him. I also don't see how allowing her to fight is a problem either. Molly is a big girl and makes her own choices. And asking a weaker person to fight is hardly a moral crime.

-That is and extremely....interesting...definition of murder. Martin was an asshole working for the Red Court and had betrayed them all. Susan literally told Dresden to kill her in order to take out the Red Court. Why should a stand-up hero not do that? Its not heroic to have absurd and unprincipled standards that are devoid of context. Even if Susan had not given her assent to Harry, he would have been justified in killing her to activate the spell because she was dead or worse if he didn't. The situation is so black and white its not even funny imo.

-He didn't give a rats ass about the greater war, the plan was to just grab Maggie and run.

-He pressured someone he knows is in love with him into helping kill him and then brought her to a place with a very real chance of shattering her mind (she's probably lucky in a sense that she was out from blood loss before the climax). And this plan then guaranteed her death because of the doom with a high chance of going mad before she dies. As her mentor this was some horrible decision-making on Dresden's part.

-He manipulated Susan into being a viable blood sacrifice before the end (and then years later conveniently left that part of the story out).

[noblehunter]

I'm mostly pointing out what people have raised as issues in the past. If you think everything Harry did was justified, that's a legitimate way to read the book. I'll still argue about it some but I'm not interested in pursuing every question.

Regarding Molly, her ability to make choices regarding Harry was compromised. He was her teacher, she had romantic feelings for him, she was her big damn hero, and she was already compromised by black magic. When you know how someone is going to answer, sometimes you have a responsibility not to ask. Even if she was an adult, Harry has a duty of care towards her as her teacher. He should not have led her into danger.

Interestingly, asking Molly to help kill him wasn't his fault, which further complicates the issue. Since that's how Molly was most grievously hurt.

[Shift8]

-He didn't give a rats ass about the greater war, the plan was to just grab Maggie and run.

-He pressured someone he knows is in love with him into helping kill him and then brought her to a place with a very real chance of shattering her mind (she's probably lucky in a sense that she was out from blood loss before the climax). And this plan then guaranteed her death because of the doom with a high chance of going mad before she dies. As her mentor this was some horrible decision-making on Dresden's part.

-He manipulated Susan into being a viable blood sacrifice before the end (and then years later conveniently left that part of the story out).

-Doesn't matter what he gave a rats ass about. Motivations are irrelevant if the actions are justified. Saving his daughter was a perfectly good justification on its own for everything he did in the books, but even if it hadn't been it would not have mattered. Motivations make you guilty of nothing. Motivations only affect guilt if the actions committed could not have been justified given the circumstances. Ex: Hitler kills a rapist and saves a person from being raped. It doesn't matter if Hitler acting just because he knew the rapist was Jewish. That's not how moral responsibility works.

-None of that is morally bad. Asking things of people who love you is normal. She made her own choices and no one forced her. I don't consider the events regarding Molly to even be slightly objectionable. And it self-evidently did not guarantee her death because she is you know, alive. Harry asked his close friend to take some big risks for him. Big whoop.

-Manipulated? As I recall it was a spur of the moment thing when it became clear there were no other options. Susan was dead or worse regardless of what Harry did. If Harry had not gotten her to kill Martin, she would have died or suffered some other wrath of the Red Court. If not that, then she would have be forced into becoming a full vampire by the Red Court since she was in their custody. Moreover, Susan knew what she was doing when she did it. She made he own choices, the fact that Harry gave her that information for his own benefit is irrelevant.

 

[Shift8]

I'm mostly pointing out what people have raised as issues in the past. If you think everything Harry did was justified, that's a legitimate way to read the book. I'll still argue about it some but I'm not interested in pursuing every question.

Fair enough, the point of this was for me to find out what the objections were anyhow.

Regarding Molly, her ability to make choices regarding Harry was compromised. He was her teacher, she had romantic feelings for him, she was her big damn hero, and she was already compromised by black magic. When you know how someone is going to answer, sometimes you have a responsibility not to ask. Even if she was an adult, Harry has a duty of care towards her as her teacher. He should not have led her into danger.

An adult never has their decision making compromised, at least not from the things you listed. She was an adult, it doesn't matter it he was her mentor. Would it be wrong for Eb to ask Harry for help? Of course not. It also doesn't matter that she was in love with him. Is it wrong to ask a spouse for help? I mean come on.  And I reject entirely that black magic is real or works the way the WC thinks it does. The entire justification given by the WC is logically incoherent with regards to the laws of magic.

[Mira]

Molly is and was a big girl who can make her own choices. Dresden didn't mind control her. And he didn't ask favors lightly, he asked her to do it because of extreme need. That's not being jerk. And Molly took a risk, it was not a death sentence. As evinced by her still being alive.

Exactly, she'd also be dead if Harry hadn't stood up for her, so she owed him one.  Also those that went to C.I. were grown ups, they knew what the Red Court was, they weren't forced, it was their choice to go.

Interestingly, asking Molly to help kill him wasn't his fault, which further complicates the issue. Since that's how Molly was most grievously hurt.

There is a moment I believe in Peace Talks where Harry express regret for what asking her to do it, did to her.  I believe her answer was she'd do it again.  No, it wasn't Harry's fault in the sense that it was the Red King that first murdered her foster family and then kidnapped little Maggie.  Harry wouldn't even have known that she existed except Susan asked him to help save her.  It wasn't his fault that the boarding house was fire bombed and that gas tank exploded just when he was on that ladder trying to save that old lady.  It wasn't his fault that his back was broken and his spine severed, and his little girl was about to be killed along with himself and his grandfather and there wasn't anything he could do about it.  He did feel that Mab was a monster, he didn't want to become her monster, yet to save his child this was what he had to do.  He was hurt, worried, not himself at all, he cannot really be held responsible for coming up with the one solution he thought could prevent him from being used by Mab.  Molly was of age, she was no innocent, look what she did to her friends, and she proved later in Turn Coat that she would do it again, putting Harry's head at risk as well as her own. As they say, it was a shit show all around, it is a miracle it came out as well as it did.

[noblehunter]

An adult never has their decision making compromised, at least not from the things you listed. She was an adult, it doesn't matter it he was her mentor. Would it be wrong for Eb to ask Harry for help? Of course not. It also doesn't matter that she was in love with him. Is it wrong to ask a spouse for help? I mean come on.  And I reject entirely that black magic is real or works the way the WC thinks it does. The entire justification given by the WC is logically incoherent with regards to the laws of magic.

Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you. Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master.  That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.

Mira, we have the (almost) literal word of god that Harry's suicide was compelled by one of the Fallen. Ergo, asking Molly to help kill him can't be Harry's fault.

[BrainFireBob]

Fair enough, the point of this was for me to find out what the objections were anyhow.

An adult never has their decision making compromised, at least not from the things you listed. She was an adult, it doesn't matter it he was her mentor. Would it be wrong for Eb to ask Harry for help? Of course not. It also doesn't matter that she was in love with him. Is it wrong to ask a spouse for help? I mean come on.  And I reject entirely that black magic is real or works the way the WC thinks it does. The entire justification given by the WC is logically incoherent with regards to the laws of magic.

Notice your use of "I." Your conceptual gap is your fanon. You don't trust the White Council, or its understanding of how black magic works, despite Harry agreeing with them on how it works and "taints" the magic of a wizard or sorcerer.

Harry chose to make a Faustian bargain for selfish reasons- paternal love for a child. While sympathetic, it was in some respects the moral equivalent of having a child needing an organ donor and murdering people until a matching donor was found- that's what the "whatever" in "whatever it takes" means. Harry is going to kill whatever he needs to kill, and allow whatever friends and allies need to die to die, to save Maggie. He might feel bad about it later, but he's quite clear that feeling bad later isn't going to stop him now. That's . .not a good choice, from a strictly moral perspective.

It worked out for him. Intentions do in fact matter, not just actions. If my wife is having a heart attack and I run a red light because she's dying on the way to the hospital, but then run over a pedestrian, it is neither legally nor morally the same as slamming on my gas when I see a pedestrian walking to run them over laughing. One is Murder 1: Deliberate and malicious homicide, one is negligent homicide or reckless endangerment- I knowingly took actions I knew *might* result in the death of someone but neither intended them to result nor planned for them to result. It's why such distinctions exist. In fact, that's the essence of the self-defense defense Harry has vs Justin- Harry did not want to kill Justin, he wanted to not-be-dead from Justin, which required killing same. No malice or enjoyment, the intention was self-preservation.

Harry annihilated the Red Court- and the heroic Fellowship of St. Giles. Good with the bad. He didn't do it for the war, or even to save his own life- in that respect, *not* selfish. He did it for his personal child- not all the children the Red Court regularly killed. It was personal.

"Buts" are justifications, not validations.

[Shift8]

Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you.

One, I don't care. Stupid laws are all over the place. You might even say that most of human history is a history of stupid laws, and lack of good ones.  And two, something like and employer making unwanted sexual advances towards someone who knows they will be fired otherwise is not the same thing. Notice that I said, "for the reasons you gave here," and not "never compromised." I would also love to know how what Harry did qualifies as "sexual" harassment. If you think asking a person you know likes you to do you a non-sexual favor for legitimate reasons is sexual harassment, you have some funny ideas.

Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master.  That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.

If you view Molly as an actual criminal (which I dont), then she is entirely responsible for her position and Dresden is not a fault here. Molly was going to be screwed anyhow since Dresden was going to be out of the picture regardless of whether she helped him or not. And Dresden agreeing to be Molly's mentor hardly deprives Dresden of his autonomy to save people he loves or quit frankly, do anything else he wants.

If you view Molly as not a criminal, but rather a victim of the pile of asshats that call themselves the WC, then Dresden is still not culpable. The White Council is responsible for both of them being in this position, so Dresden cannot be blamed for asking favors of her while she is under his Aegis. Dresden took responsibility for her when he did not have to. So she hardly has the right to claim he is abusing her if he asks her to do something for non-trivial reasons. Its not like Dresden is threatening Molly with with reporting her to the WC if she won't have sex with him or something. Dresden is acting to save his daughter and others. If Dresden were to die doing this, then Molly would be screwed under the doom. So by your logic, Dresden should never take any risks at all. Moreover, asking anything of Molly ever would be "harassment." In other words, you are basically arguing that Dresden is Molly's slave and is abusing her if he ever asks her for anything under any circumstances since it can be argued that she isn't there by choice.

[Mira]

Two things: one, the entire body of criminal and civil law regarding sexual harassment disagrees with you. Two, Harry had agreed to be Molly's master.  That means he had absolute duty to keep her alive and to keep her from turning into a warlock. He threw both aside in letting her come. It doesn't matter if she wanted to or not. What she wanted to was repeatedly break the laws of magic, it was his moral duty to override that desire. Same thing with going to C. I.

He didn't harass her though, he did his best to keep her from going warlock.  He didn't threaten or
coerce her into helping him.  She was raised in a Catholic home, by devote parents, she received a Catholic education and no doubt is confirmed in the Church.  She'd know exactly what Harry was asking, why, and that it was a sin to help him.  She did it anyway, she is responsible for her part, she may not have thought it through, but she was not some silly dumb little girl not able to make a choice.  You say it was his moral duty to override that desire, but how do you suggest he do that?  She wasn't going to listen to an order not to go.  He tried teach her what was right, she had her own ideas.  If he locked her up or magically entered her mind to change it, he'd be guilty of other things.
He didn't suggest that she turn warlock by coming with him.  Nor did he suggest she break the Laws of Magic by coming with him.

Mira, we have the (almost) literal word of god that Harry's suicide was compelled by one of the Fallen. Ergo, asking Molly to help kill him can't be Harry's fault.

And it wasn't, nor was Molly's decision to help him anyone's fault but her own.  She knew the pros and the cons of helping him, she may not have known the actual emotional price she'd pay for it.  But that can be said for any critical decision we make in our lives. 

[noblehunter]

The point of bringing up sexual harassment is that adult's decision making is compromised when their teacher is asking them something. That's why professors aren't allowed to sleep with their students.

Your teacher shouldn't be asking you for sex and he shouldn't be asking you to risk your life and potentially go dark side. And an apprentice's master has even more authority over her than a professor or teacher.