Justine plot hole [BG spoilers]

[Pirate101]

I've been convinced that Justine was be nemfected since nemesis was identified; it allows beings act against their nature, and Justine was suddenly this totally cool and put together person.

This is the big clue imho. I believe it happened some time before White Night via Nemfected Vitto Malvora or the sad remains of Outsider-connected Papa Raith. Justine was almost reduced to a veggie state after Blood Rites. You just don't recover from something like this so thoroughly. The only thing that was left of the person Justine was the newly acquired True Love. Which made her a very interesting candidate around WCV. I think the recovery for Thomas' sake was the hook Nemesis used to bait her and her work to get close to Lara the price she had to pay. Nemesis must have realized the potential in her position early on: Lara would love to have a PA who can't be fed upon by other WCV and who is emotionally connected to the family via Thomas.

[huangjimmy108]

Ooh, yeah that.

I was going to say that Demonreach is actually exhausted after reaching all the way to Chicago to capture Ethniu. Demonreach was at basically full strength in Cold Days, though its Warden wasn't.

It is not demonreach who is exhausted, it is Harry. Alfred can't do anything actively without Harry's command as the warden and with Harry barely holding on, there is very little that can be done.

[Mira]

I'm convinced that this is one of the things that happened the night of Bianca's party. If you remember, before that, Justine was with Thomas because she had a condition that made her basically insane, and Thomas feeding on her made her even out. Yet after Bianca's party she went for years without being fed on and she was just fine.

I've been convinced that Justine was be nemfected since nemesis was identified; it allows beings act against their nature, and Justine was suddenly this totally cool and put together person. I'm convinced that this is another one of the 'several things of significance' that happened that night, of which Harry was unaware. Her saying that it was when she started getting close to Lara was just another ploy, imho, to get Harry to think that Lara is the one who infected Justine (You know, since the ploy of getting Justine into the depths of Demon Reach was clearly failing).

Exactly, that is my point as well.  Also Nemeses might have the ability to just hibernate in Justine's brain until needed.  So the true love thing between her and Thomas wouldn't be affected until such time as Nemeses needed it to be affected.  Timing is everything, no doubt it was aware of Harry's little spiritual walk about in Ghost Story.. Suddenly Justine gets the idea that if she had lesbian sex with a friend, it would break the protection and she and Thomas can have sex?  How many years had they been together by then?  Why hadn't they thought of that or done something that simple before?  I remember either in a book or short story, Justine is wearing a nifty rubber suit so she and Thomas can touch.  Also with thinking Harry is dead at the time and what Shaggy did to him in Turn Coat, Thomas is vulnerable psychologically in ways he wasn't before, easier for her to control.  That move was deliberate to pave the way for the eventual conception of the baby, which began the avalanche.   Some one mentioned a Trojan Horse, Justine was a beautiful Trojan Horse, and Nemeses almost pulled it off, but Harry is star born and that made all the difference.

[Dina]

I really hope that JB clarifies this sometime (the moment of infection) because I don't see Nemesis compatible with true love. Also, is the baby infected?

[Mira]

I really hope that JB clarifies this sometime (the moment of infection) because I don't see Nemesis compatible with true love. Also, is the baby infected?

  I hope not, I hope there is a way to remove the infestation.  It is also clear that it pretty much takes a star born to detect when someone is infested.  Maeve went a very long time before Mab realized it, Lea apparently was so far off the rails early on, then realized herself what was happening and surrendered to Dr Mab's ice treatment.  Neither Lara nor Thomas apparently had any clue that anything was amiss with Justine.  Harry almost didn't until it was too late, but exhausted as he was he finally was able to put two and two together and get four.  He may have earlier but other than taken aback a little by Justine's reaction back in Peace Talks he didn't suspect anything.  Why?  Because he had no real reason to at that point, though a huge honking clue, as I said in an early threat that perhaps it may have been Justine who called up the Outsider corner hounds.

[The_Sibelis]

If Justine is being possessed, how would Thomas have the True Love Protection from someone who wasn't really in control of themselves, or possibly even truly in love at all?

Though that does torpedo my theory that Nemesis can't possess mortal humans.

that might be the plot hole... Leah took Susan's memory so as to aquire her love for Harry thinking love would protect her. I assume since it was foreign, and love for Harry the changer/starborn that it opened her for Nemesis through the knife when she thought it would protect her... Now we have a couple that we KNOW had true love for each other and one of them is Nfected... That's fishy..

[Dina]

I suspect Fidelacchius will be instrumental to remove Nemesis, at least from the baby.
The problem I see is: Is the baby useful for Nemesis now? Perhaps as a host, and protection to herself while she is carrying. So perhaps (hopefully) they are safe now. But what after the baby is born? Will he or she be useful for Nemesis or will it try to kill him/her? Because that will happen before the year until the wedding and all that.
Also, having Nemesis perhaps compete with the Hunger parasite? Thus helping Justine to conceive?
Lastly, we have seen in a short story that a Lamia is susceptible to Thomas power while inhabiting a human body, so...will Justine/Nemesis being susceptible to a full attack by Lara?

Agree about the corner hounds.

[The_Sibelis]

Oof, you just gave me an idea... What if Nemesis isn't Nfecting Justine directly, but getting inside her defenses by possessing the babe..? Their life energies are pretty much melded from the sounds of PTs dialogue..

[Mira]

that might be the plot hole... Leah took Susan's memory so as to aquire her love for Harry thinking love would protect her. I assume since it was foreign, and love for Harry the changer/starborn that it opened her for Nemesis through the knife when she thought it would protect her... Now we have a couple that we KNOW had true love for each other and one of them is Nfected... That's fishy..

Maybe not, if the true love protection is strictly a White Court thing, it wouldn't matter if the host is infested with Nemeses or not.  Since the host is only protected from being fed upon by another White Court vampire.

[The_Sibelis]

Maybe not, if the true love protection is strictly a White Court thing, it wouldn't matter if the host is infested with Nemeses or not.  Since the host is only protected from being fed upon by another White Court vampire.

see the whole Lea thinking she could take on that which stalked us all by being in love idea touched on above. It's been implied she thought she could use love for Harry to gainsay Nemesis. Indeed, the kiss on Thomas's neck was supposed to be the litmus test for that, which she had passed.

[B33bl3br0x]

If Justine is being possessed, how would Thomas have the True Love Protection from someone who wasn't really in control of themselves, or possibly even truly in love at all?

Though that does torpedo my theory that Nemesis can't possess mortal humans.

Thomas didn't have the protection, Justine had the protection because Thomas loved her. The protection is against being fed on by Wampires, there's no indication that Thomas ever actually had this protection (nor has he needed it thus far).

[B33bl3br0x]

that might be the plot hole... Leah took Susan's memory so as to aquire her love for Harry thinking love would protect her. I assume since it was foreign, and love for Harry the changer/starborn that it opened her for Nemesis through the knife when she thought it would protect her... Now we have a couple that we KNOW had true love for each other and one of them is Nfected... That's fishy..

I don't know what you're talking about at all. At what point does anyone propose that love protects against nemfection?

[Mira]

I don't know what you're talking about at all. At what point does anyone propose that love protects against nemfection?

No where, the true love protection protects against the emotional feeding by the form of the Hunger demon that infests the Raiths.. There is no fine print about it protecting against infestation from Nemeses.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't know what you're talking about at all. At what point does anyone propose that love protects against nemfection?

if your paying attention it's there, not everything in the DF is simply spelled out for you. Lea had a plan, that plan included confronting nemesis, taking on the aspect of love was done intentionally, ergo part of her plan. Logic isn't rocket science thankfully,
There's a specific Woj about how Jim writes the DF so that you can figure out what's going on sans one important clue you'll have to spring board on your own.. snot that hard, just takes an open mind. It's not in the fine print, it's in between the lines 😉

[B33bl3br0x]

if your paying attention it's there, not everything in the DF is simply spelled out for you. Lea had a plan, that plan included confronting nemesis, taking on the aspect of love was done intentionally, ergo part of her plan. Logic isn't rocket science thankfully,

The athame was the tool used to nfect Leah. Your reading suggests that Leah somehow knew before she got it that the athame was somehow conveying a seed (for lack of a better word) of Nemesis.  Yet later on in the series she spits about "treacherous gifts" which suggests that she definitely didn't know that the athame would nfect her.

I just don't buy it.